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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education (Read 832 times)
Snarky Sack
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #90 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 9:47am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 7:18pm:
There are miles and miles of very old sanitary sewers under most of our cities. It's not likely anyone will want to buy them.

Sewage treatment plants are highly regulated by states and the feds, and it is required that licensed people operate them. There are lots of liability issues if you screw up and pollute the neighboring stream or river. It's unlikely that anyone would want to buy them. Locating a new sewage treatment plant is limited to certain areas that are lower than the city they serve and there are lots of regulatory hoops to jump through before you can get approval to build one, which makes them very expensive to build.

To build an new treatment plant to compete with existing treatment plants means you have to run new sewers to the new plant.

I don't think it's a good opportunity to make money at all.

Money can be saved by putting the operation of the treatment plant up for competitive bidding and not having city employees run it.

Likewise for sewer maintenance and repair.

Nobody wants to buy the old sewer system or try to build a new one under an existing city, but private contractors will bid competitively to maintain them, so you can save money by eliminating the Public Works employees that currently repair and maintain sewers.


None of those points are problems caused by libertarianism, they are problems caused by government.

If a local government decides to contract maintenance of the existing crappity smacked up government sewage system to crony contractors instead of hiring crony union members it's possible that the contractors will cut enough safety corners and hire enough illegal aliens to be able to save money in the short run. 

There is no possibility that this money will be returned to the taxpayers, bureaucrats will simply find other "vital" projects on which to spend it.  Then, when it turns out that the private contractors charged for maintenance it never performed, the town will have to float a bond to make the needed repairs.


  

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The Opposition
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #91 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 11:09am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 7:18pm:
There are miles and miles of very old sanitary sewers under most of our cities. It's not likely anyone will want to buy them.

Sewage treatment plants are highly regulated by states and the feds, and it is required that licensed people operate them. There are lots of liability issues if you screw up and pollute the neighboring stream or river.


If I put myself in the shoes of a capitalist, of course I'd buy them.

I can fix them up and then I can make you pay through the nose to use them. And since pollution will be an issue for civil courts, and I will have a lot of money, I can defend myself from pollution charges but I'm going to be the one coming after you with lawyers if you build an outhouse and try to get out of using my service.

Being squeezed for necessary services will be a huge problem in the free market. Having those services available will not be.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #92 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 12:59pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 9:47am:
None of those points are problems caused by libertarianism, they are problems caused by government.


Some of the problems involved in providing sanitary sewers and treatment plants are caused by naturally existing realities, although it would be possible to pump all the sewage uphill to a new sewage treatment plant, it is more costly both initially and through ongoing costs.

Suppose you want to have competing sewage disposal companies in a brand new suburban subdivision. Anyone who wants to compete will have to jump through the same government imposed health and safety hoops and face the exact same liabilities for polluting the water if they do.

How would you go about it? You need to get in on it at the development stage, where a private company is clearing the land and grading it and building roads and dividing the property into lots  to be sold to whatever builders of individuals want to buy them to build new homes on... The sewers will be installed before the roads are built and paved, because nothing else makes sense.

Provisions for connection to a sewage treatment plant (or plants), whether new or existing, will be made even before the developer starts work, because no developer will waste money building roads and installing sewers that can't be connected to a treatment plant.

Do you expect numerous private companies to build sewage treatment plants in hopes that the development will actually happen? They don't always you know... Would each of the competing sewage treatment plants run its own sewers to each house lot so the could compete for customers after the houses were built? Or would you expect the developer to install multiple sewers to each house lot?

How do you imagine it would/could be done so there would be free competition for sewage disposal?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #93 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 1:00pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 11:09am:
If I put myself in the shoes of a capitalist, of course I'd buy them.

I can fix them up and then I can make you pay through the nose to use them.
You want the government to grant you a monopoly. That's not in the spirit of free competition. Sack won't approve...

If your sewers leak and pollute the groundwater or the streams/lakes/rivers you will be liable.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #94 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 1:50pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 12:59pm:
Some of the problems involved in providing sanitary sewers and treatment plants are caused by naturally existing realities, although it would be possible to pump all the sewage uphill to a new sewage treatment plant, it is more costly both initially and through ongoing costs.

Suppose you want to have competing sewage disposal companies in a brand new suburban subdivision. Anyone who wants to compete will have to jump through the same government imposed health and safety hoops and face the exact same liabilities for polluting the water if they do.


Those are government problems, not free market problems.

Quote:
How would you go about it? You need to get in on it at the development stage, where a private company is clearing the land and grading it and building roads and dividing the property into lots  to be sold to whatever builders of individuals want to buy them to build new homes on... The sewers will be installed before the roads are built and paved, because nothing else makes sense.


Which is what is done now, isn't it?

Quote:
Provisions for connection to a sewage treatment plant (or plants), whether new or existing, will be made even before the developer starts work, because no developer will waste money building roads and installing sewers that can't be connected to a treatment plant.

Do you expect numerous private companies to build sewage treatment plants in hopes that the development will actually happen? They don't always you know... Would each of the competing sewage treatment plants run its own sewers to each house lot so the could compete for customers after the houses were built? Or would you expect the developer to install multiple sewers to each house lot?

How do you imagine it would/could be done so there would be free competition for sewage disposal?


Wow, you are a hater of the free market.

Sure, private sewage companies would build treatment plants to serve existing homes and future new homes.  How do you think we get new subdivisions?  Developers buy someone's farm or ranch land and put houses on it.  Under a free market system, of course they will provide for waste disposal, just like the provide for the streets they build the houses on. 

I think you hate freedom so much that you've never bothered to learn how it works.  I don't know how else to explain this weird questions you ask.
 

Are you seriously questioning whether private companies invest money to make profits in the future?


  

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Jeff
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #95 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 2:30pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 1:50pm:
Those are government problems, not free market problems.


Which is what is done now, isn't it?


Wow, you are a hater of the free market.

Sure, private sewage companies would build treatment plants to serve existing homes and future new homes.  How do you think we get new subdivisions?  Developers buy someone's farm or ranch land and put houses on it.  Under a free market system, of course they will provide for waste disposal, just like the provide for the streets they build the houses on. 

I think you hate freedom so much that you've never bothered to learn how it works.  I don't know how else to explain this weird questions you ask.
 

Are you seriously questioning whether private companies invest money to make profits in the future?



Developers make sure that sewage disposal will be available before they develop the land, if it isn't, they don't develop the land, and when they do develop the land they put in sewers and then pave the roads they've built, often over top of the sewers.

Sketch it out for me how sewage disposal companies will compete for the business of the homeowners who haven't yet bought the lots and had homes built on them. Thanks.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #96 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 3:17pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 2:30pm:
Developers make sure that sewage disposal will be available before they develop the land, if it isn't, they don't develop the land, and when they do develop the land they put in sewers and then pave the roads they've built, often over top of the sewers.

Sketch it out for me how sewage disposal companies will compete for the business of the homeowners who haven't yet bought the lots and had homes built on them. Thanks.


Sure!  It's really easy when you think about it.

ABC Sewage will just contact developers and say, "hey, there's a farmer's field right next to a chemical plant that a private business is opening.  Be a really good place for you to build a subdivision to house the workers and managers.  I'm already contracting with the chemical plant to handle their waste disposal at a treatment facility I'm building right next to it.  If you do build on that site, it will be very easy for me to expand to accept the residential sewage also."

Once the development starts, XYZ Sewage Company may call and say, "hey, I hear you're planning to send ABC your sewage business.  We just developed a method that treats sewage much less expensively so we could charge you a whole lot less than ABC.  Let's get together and talk numbers."

I know you hate that because there are no guns being used, but such win-win negotiations are actually what produces the wealth for the government to steal in the first place, so if you think of it that way, you might not be so mad.

  

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Jeff
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #97 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 4:51pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
Sure!  It's really easy when you think about it.

ABC Sewage will just contact developers and say, "hey, there's a farmer's field right next to a chemical plant that a private business is opening.  Be a really good place for you to build a subdivision to house the workers and managers.  I'm already contracting with the chemical plant to handle their waste disposal at a treatment facility I'm building right next to it.  If you do build on that site, it will be very easy for me to expand to accept the residential sewage also."

Once the development starts, XYZ Sewage Company may call and say, "hey, I hear you're planning to send ABC your sewage business.  We just developed a method that treats sewage much less expensively so we could charge you a whole lot less than ABC.  Let's get together and talk numbers."


You are insane and ignorant and stupid.

That's what critical thinking tells me.

I understand it's a harsh judgement on my part, but I have to accept the conclusions of critical thinking, right? Kiss
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #98 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 5:00pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 4:51pm:
You are insane and ignorant and stupid.

That's what critical thinking tells me.

I understand it's a harsh judgement on my part, but I have to accept the conclusions of critical thinking, right? Kiss


LoL!

In other words, you have no answer, you feel foolish, so you want to pout but console yourself with thoughts of being protected by the pedarchy.


  

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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #99 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 5:23pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 5:00pm:
In other words, you have no answer...
I've answered your questions.

I'm waiting for you to answer your own questions and my questions.

Obviously, you can't.
  
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