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Some Voluntaryist
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Is voting ethical?
Nov 5th, 2018 at 7:40pm
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Usually, the argument against voting is that it's a form of coercion. You are imposing a preferred ruler over everyone else, which is therefore unethical.

But it gets morally ambiguous when you consider candidates/policies that are going to hold back government aggression, rather than expand it. In that case, it's more like voting defensively rather than aggressively.

What do you guys think? Did you vote this year?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #1 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 9:18pm
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Voting is indeed a form of force. Yes, if you win, you're forcing your way on others.

Some Voluntaryist wrote on Nov 5th, 2018 at 7:40pm:
But it gets morally ambiguous when you consider candidates/policies that are going to hold back government aggression, rather than expand it. In that case, it's more like voting defensively rather than aggressively.


Putting your faith in a candidate who has no accountability to you is tenuous.

If the candidate aggresses, then that's your aggression too, since your vote helped to force him into power.

I had this to say about it in another thread. I was talking about how it's very difficult to actually live libertarian.

The Opposition wrote on Feb 27th, 2017 at 10:02pm:
For example, I can't call the police because it's aggression. I'm not entitled to that service because I didn't pay for it. Sure, I was stolen from for it, but that doesn't count. Just because a thief has my money doesn't mean I get to tell him what he can and can't do with it. I can - if the law allows and if I can find a private court to represent me - take the thief to court and try to get it back. That's all.

Another example is that I can't defend myself even if the law does allow it. The rights of others are inalienable and not contingent upon their respect for my rights. Under the strictest interpretation of the NAP, self-defence is a fake right. For one it's positive, and for two it violates rights by definition.

I also can't vote. Voting represents my use of an institution of aggressive, forceful power for my own ends. That is itself force.


There is, however, another way to look at this: You are giving the candidate power. What he does with it is his own business. If he aggresses, that's entirely on him, no different than giving someone a gun.

It may be massively unwise to turn the reins to your vicious warbeast over to someone who will misuse it, and although negligent, is not perhaps aggression itself. If the misuser commits aggression, that is his own.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #2 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 10:08pm
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Some Voluntaryist wrote on Nov 5th, 2018 at 7:40pm:
What do you guys think? Did you vote this year?

I voted.

I was happy to do it because my vote was informed.

An uninformed vote is when someone says "It's time we had a woman Governor!"  or  "It's time we had a black President!"

These are emotional/uninformed votes. 

My Voter Proficiency Exam would eliminate these votes from fouling the electoral process.
  
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Some Voluntaryist
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #3 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 3:01am
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 5th, 2018 at 10:08pm:
My Voter Proficiency Exam would eliminate these votes from fouling the electoral process.


Interesting. What would be on that test? Huh
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #4 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 7:33am
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Some Voluntaryist wrote on Nov 5th, 2018 at 7:40pm:
Usually, the argument against voting is that it's a form of coercion. You are imposing a preferred ruler over everyone else, which is therefore unethical.

You're talking in either a pure democracy or an authoritarian dictatorship where there is only one candidate on the ballot?

The idea of voting in the U.S. is to place good competent people in government so they will serve us conscientiously, remain within the laws that bind their actions as public servants and not rob us.

That makes voting ethical doesn't it?

If your choice is between two power hungry cronies who both want to "rule" so they can rob us and control us, and no third party candidate is on the ballot or has any chance of winning, voting is a waste of your time.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #5 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 7:35am
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Some Voluntaryist wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 3:01am:
Interesting. What would be on that test? Huh
I'd make it the same test that people wanting to become U.S. citizens have to pass, and only offer it in English.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #6 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:21am
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Some Voluntaryist wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 3:01am:
Interesting. What would be on that test? Huh

4 or 5 basic questions on the powers and scope of government.  Here are a couple of examples:

What are the 3 branches of government?

a)  Legislative, Judicial, and Financial
b)  Financial, Labor, and Entitlements
c)  Legislative, Executive, and Judicial
d)  Energy, Trade, and Foreign Affairs

What are the primary functions of Congress?

a)  Allocate Taxes and Confirm jurists on the Supreme Court
b)  Oversee the House of Representatives and suggest replacements.
c)  Make Laws and conduct investigations to oversee the Executive Branch.
d)  Oversee the IRS and update the Bill of Rights when needed.

You'd be surprised to learn that less than 50% of the electorate could answer these two questions correctly.

Even Jeff couldn't figure out the answer to the second one! 

(the correct answer is (c) Make Laws and conduct investigations to oversee the Executive Branch.)
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #7 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:45am
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:21am:
Even Jeff couldn't figure out the answer to the second one! 

(the correct answer is (c) Make Laws and conduct investigations to oversee the Executive Branch.)
It's the second part of that that I don't see as a primary function of Congress.

They do have the power to Impeach, but not just  people in the Executive branch, and I think it's far from one of their primary functions. They've hardly ever done it.

BTW, it's the Presidents responsibility to oversee the Executive branch.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #8 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:50am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 5th, 2018 at 9:18pm:
There is, however, another way to look at this: You are giving the candidate power.
You'll never get it will you?

The power of elected officials comes only from the law. In the case of electing people to Congress, they have no power once elected beyond the enumerated powers granted Congress by the Constitution, and individually, Congressmen have no power at all.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #9 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 12:52pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:45am:
It's the second part of that that I don't see as a primary function of Congress.

They do have the power to Impeach, but not just  people in the Executive branch, and I think it's far from one of their primary functions. They've hardly ever done it.

BTW, it's the Presidents responsibility to oversee the Executive branch.

I used this explanation as a source for the question: https://quizlet.com/17311222/6-principle-functions-of-congress-flash-cards/

"Many of the bills considered by Congress originate with the executive branch (many others from interest groups and political party orgs), but only Congress can create laws."

"Congress reviews actions of the executive branch and makes sure that its laws are carried out properly."

If Dems can win the Senate, they will begin a series of investigations on Trump, independent of the Mueller investigation.

Their hope is they will find some emoluments clause violations by examining Trump's Income Tax returns for anomalies.
  
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