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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is voting ethical? (Read 217 times)
Jeff
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #10 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 2:36pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 12:52pm:
"Congress reviews actions of the executive branch and makes sure that its laws are carried out properly."

I don't think Congress actually does that... They do have the power to impeach executive branch officials for malfeasance and dereliction and things like that, but I can't remember them doing it. Congress doesn't even seem to oversee itself.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #11 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 8:53pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:50am:
You'll never get it will you?

The power of elected officials comes only from the law. In the case of electing people to Congress, they have no power once elected beyond the enumerated powers granted Congress by the Constitution, and individually, Congressmen have no power at all.


That is still power. It is given by the voters who vote for the candidate.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #12 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 7:36am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 8:53pm:
That is still power. It is given by the voters who vote for the candidate.
Even if the elected representative could exercise the granted powers without any qualification such as approval by the majority of the House and the majority of the Senate and approval of the President, it is still strictly limited power, or at least it's supposed to be. And of course some person can bring a complaint about the power or it's exercise to the courts, where the courts can say "No, you don't have that power" or "No, that's not a legitimate exercise of that power"...

This can help too, but only if people know that it's a power they possess against the power of government-

https://reason.com/archives/2018/11/06/judge-advocates-jury-nullification?utm_me...


  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #13 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 8:31am
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SkyChief wrote yesterday at 12:52pm:
Quote:
"Congress reviews actions of the executive branch and makes sure that its laws are carried out properly."


Jeff wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 2:36pm:
I don't think Congress actually does that... They do have the power to impeach executive branch officials for malfeasance and dereliction and things like that, but I can't remember them doing it. Congress doesn't even seem to oversee itself.


They do the first part, review.  But you're correct in that they do not make sure its laws are carried out properly.

For the last two years, we've had a politically motivated special prosecutor investigating the duly elected president and the Republicans in Congress investigating the investigation.  To what good result?

One incredibly biassed FBI man was taken off the case, but there are still plenty of biased people on the Special Prosecutor's team who just haven't gotten caught in such an embarrassing way. 

Now, Dems control the House next two years.  So they'll be investigating Russia, Russia, Russia and doing little else.  Will the deep state stonewall the Dems the way the deep state stonewalled Trey Gowdy and Jason Chaffets?  I don't know why not, there were no consequences for the stonewallers.

The claim of "executive privilege is sketchy coming from the president himself.  When deep staters who oppose the president withhold documents on the basis of executive privilege because the president hasn't told them to release the documents, that is taking it to an absurdity that anyone but our media would recognize.

But, of course - the GOP did zero about it.


  

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Jeff
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #14 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 10:21am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 8:31am:
SkyChief wrote yesterday at 12:52pm:


They do the first part, review.  But you're correct in that they do not make sure its laws are carried out properly.

For the last two years, we've had a politically motivated special prosecutor investigating the duly elected president and the Republicans in Congress investigating the investigation.  To what good result?

One incredibly biassed FBI man was taken off the case, but there are still plenty of biased people on the Special Prosecutor's team who just haven't gotten caught in such an embarrassing way. 

Now, Dems control the House next two years.  So they'll be investigating Russia, Russia, Russia and doing little else.  Will the deep state stonewall the Dems the way the deep state stonewalled Trey Gowdy and Jason Chaffets?  I don't know why not, there were no consequences for the stonewallers.

The claim of "executive privilege is sketchy coming from the president himself.  When deep staters who oppose the president withhold documents on the basis of executive privilege because the president hasn't told them to release the documents, that is taking it to an absurdity that anyone but our media would recognize.

But, of course - the GOP did zero about it.


From what I know about the review process (not much...) Congress creates bureaucracies and assigns staffers to carry out reviews, but I don't think they pay much attention to the results and conclusions of the reviews, and as you say, they seem to not do much about it.

They do have constant hearings by Congressional committees, but they are political dog and pony shows that make a pretense of investigation in order to reach forgone conclusions by the committee's majorities.

Perhaps you read this-

http://thecrux.com/no-matter-how-you-vote-congress-wont-represent-you/

It's a powerful argument along the lines of your claims. If you haven't read it, please do and let me know what you think. Thanks.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #15 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 11:14am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 10:21am:

Good article - thanks Jeff.

To conclude therefore, that any specific voter has consented to, say, a tax increase because his “representative” approved it, is an extremely sketchy endeavor, at best.

Exactly.  The Rep approves a Tax increase because it makes gov't more powerful.   Then the Rep claims that he/she approved the Tax because the constituents (voters) consented to it.  When in fact, the  constituents (voters) adamanlty opposed it!

This is business as usual in California.   I suspect it goes on in Washington, too.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #16 - Nov 12th, 2018 at 4:03pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 10:21am:
From what I know about the review process (not much...) Congress creates bureaucracies and assigns staffers to carry out reviews, but I don't think they pay much attention to the results and conclusions of the reviews, and as you say, they seem to not do much about it.

They do have constant hearings by Congressional committees, but they are political dog and pony shows that make a pretense of investigation in order to reach forgone conclusions by the committee's majorities.

Perhaps you read this-

http://thecrux.com/no-matter-how-you-vote-congress-wont-represent-you/

It's a powerful argument along the lines of your claims. If you haven't read it, please do and let me know what you think. Thanks.


It was actually a very good article, Jeff.

I liked the part about not expecting an elected representative to represent you the way a paid representative would in the private sector. 

From the moment he or she takes office, a representative at any level of government is subjected to a multitude of competing pressures and influences.  That happens every single day with groups promising/threatening consequences/rewards such as campaign contributions, ending campaign contributions,  running ads for or against the candidate, delivering block votes as Obama did as a community organizer, etc.

With all that happening now, representing people who will not go to the polls for up to two years from now is a difficult goal to focus on.

It goes to Some Voluntaryist's question which I have never pondered until he asked it.

Is it even ethical to participate in such a sham system? Are we libertarians just perpetuating a system that practically guarantees that true freedom be impossible?

*ponder, ponder*
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #17 - Nov 12th, 2018 at 5:22pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 12th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
From the moment he or she takes office, a representative at any level of government is subjected to a multitude of competing pressures and influences.  That happens every single day with groups promising/threatening consequences/rewards such as campaign contributions, ending campaign contributions,  running ads for or against the candidate, delivering block votes as Obama did as a community organizer, etc.
All of these problems can be traced back to the politicization of the courts and the expansion of government power, as well as the effective destruction of the Constitutional limits on taxation. "Democratizing" the election of Senators accelerated the process. Giving the TwoParties control over the electoral process aids and abets.

It is not a reason to abandon government entirely, but rather it is reason to rein in government, remove it's usurped powers and limit it the a few enumerated powers again.

We know what went wrong. We can improve it so it will last much longer and maybe our posterity will know the Blessings of Liberty.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #18 - Nov 12th, 2018 at 5:25pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 12th, 2018 at 4:03pm:
It goes to Some Voluntaryist's question which I have never pondered until he asked it.

Is it even ethical to participate in such a sham system? Are we libertarians just perpetuating a system that practically guarantees that true freedom be impossible?

*ponder, ponder*
What did you conclude? That voting is unethical? Immoral even? Is it bad enough that it should be illegal?

You think my votes for Libertarian candidates helps perpetuate the system? How?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Is voting ethical?
Reply #19 - Nov 12th, 2018 at 5:30pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 12th, 2018 at 5:25pm:
What did you conclude? That voting is unethical? Immoral even? Is it bad enough that it should be illegal?

You think my votes for Libertarian candidates helps perpetuate the system? How?


I know you pull the GOP straight ticket lever, Jeff.  You fool no one.

But, I am still pondering whether going along with the pretense that the Republicrats would ever allow the Libertarian Party any real chance to introduce freedom in the U.S. is moral or not.
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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