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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Short but Powerful Documentary On Privatization of Police (Read 294 times)
The Opposition
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Re: Short but Powerful Documentary On Privatization of Police
Reply #10 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 9:16pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 4:33pm:
Sack, you have two opinions... How many do you need before you give us yours? I'm on tenterhooks!

Lizard, are there trans-sexual Vulcans?

Oops, Sorry, wrong thread. Embarrassed


Blurt-posting. I lol'd.

You do know that with the government police, everyone gets the bronze package and pays for the gold package, right?

The government cronies get the gold package and pay for... uhm... nothing.

There already is the money pandering. It's not going to go away. So why not bring it out in the light?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Some Voluntaryist
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Re: Short but Powerful Documentary On Privatization of Police
Reply #11 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 4:07am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 10:38am:
I stil don't think it will work and that it will have many bad unintended consequences.

Okay. Then don't pay for that one, and find a voluntary state with a tax-funded public police force, or however you'd want it to be done.

Just don't force everyone to fund something the way you'd prefer it be funded.
  
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Re: Short but Powerful Documentary On Privatization of Police
Reply #12 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 7:51am
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Some Voluntaryist wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 4:07am:
Okay. Then don't pay for that one, and find a voluntary state with a tax-funded public police force, or however you'd want it to be done.

Just don't force everyone to fund something the way you'd prefer it be funded.
A voluntary state with a tax-funded police force...

I'm going to have to think about that a while.


I just finished a book that mentioned a fire in Nantucket, MA in the mid-nineteenth Century when Nantucket had two fire departments, both funded by subscription. If you wanted either of them to protect your property, you paid them a regular fee. Great idea right?

Well, a small fire broke out, and both fire departments showed up and started arguing about who was supposed to put out the fire. While they argued, a small fire that eiter could have easily extinguished became a larger fire that both working together couldn't and a large part of the town burned.

Anyway, how do you want to fund police? Do you want a single police force for your community, funded by subscription that will only respond to calls/protect people who are paid up? Or multiple police forces paid by subscription, or some police forces paid exclusively by single rich persons or whatever combination of the above the market produces?

Here's a scenario, Billy and Joe show up at the scrapyard with a pickup truck load of good serviceable heat pumps the want to sell for scrap. There have been many complaints in the county recently of stolen heat pumps, the complaints being made to various different private police forces, and those police forces have notified the scrapyard to be on the lookout for people wanting to sell serviceable looking heat pumps.

Who does the owner of the scrapyard call? If she calls Bob's Security Services and Welding, LLC, they ask "Who were they stolen from?" and are answered "I don't know". Will Bob send some of his security employees out to arrest the thieves without knowing if the heat pumps they're trying to sell belong to his customers? Does Bob have the power to arrest people in the first place?

Where would private security forces get a legitimate power to arrest anyway? What would differentiate them from any old  gang of thugs "arresting" people and shaking them down for "fines"?

If Bob's employees stop you at random and arrest you for theft, demanding you pay a fine before they will release you, what is your recourse? Pay the fine and then call your own security service to tell them to get your money back from Bob's people? How will they do that? Will your security people be willing to spend large amounts of time and money trying to get your $100 "fine" back from Bob's guys? Will they have to shoot it out with Bob's people to get your $100 back?

Please try to answer a few of my questions. Thanks.

Please don't just say that some of our current police are corrupt/lazy/incompetent... Sack tells me that all the time, and I knew it anyway.

There will be corrupt/lazy/incompetent people in private security forces too. Of course as Sack and I both know, competition will improve services. People will subscribe to the most efficient private security firms, and prices will be held down/driven down by competition.

That's all wonderful, but I don't think having competing police forces will be good at all. All I can imagine is several police forces competing to make the most possible profit for themselves...

Does that sound good to you?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Short but Powerful Documentary On Privatization of Police
Reply #13 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 11:02am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 7:51am:
That's all wonderful, but I don't think having competing police forces will be good at all. All I can imagine is several police forces competing to make the most possible profit for themselves...


This happens in every industry, and it's to the detriment of the customer in every industry. Why is it okay for sellers of applesauce and not okay for the police?

Libertarianism says the free market is moral. Sometimes it doesn't give the perfect result. I gave an example of crisp companies always inflating the bags of crisps with air to make them look bigger. If none of them did this, they'd save space on their shipping trucks and make more profits. But if just one does it, every customer selects the bag that looks bigger, so they all have to do it.

The customer is hurt, the companies are hurt, and money is wasted. A regulation that stopped this practice would, theoretically (but perhaps not actually) help everyone.

The free market does not always give the perfect result because no system does.

We select the free market because it is right, and because force is wrong.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Short but Powerful Documentary On Privatization of Police
Reply #14 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 12:41pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 11:02am:
This happens in every industry, and it's to the detriment of the customer in every industry. Why is it okay for sellers of applesauce and not okay for the police?

Free competition produces benefits for consumers. They end up being offered better products at lower prices. Businesses that provide services are included.

Obviously you don't see the police as being any different than people who provide swimming pool services.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Short but Powerful Documentary On Privatization of Police
Reply #15 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 1:42pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 7:51am:
A voluntary state with a tax-funded police force...

I'm going to have to think about that a while.


I just finished a book that mentioned a fire in Nantucket, MA in the mid-nineteenth Century when Nantucket had two fire departments, both funded by subscription. If you wanted either of them to protect your property, you paid them a regular fee. Great idea right?

Well, a small fire broke out, and both fire departments showed up and started arguing about who was supposed to put out the fire. While they argued, a small fire that eiter could have easily extinguished became a larger fire that both working together couldn't and a large part of the town burned.


Interesting.  I just read a real book about the city of Chicago, one of the most over-governed cities in this nation and that says a lot.  Anyway in this actual book, a knocked over lantern let to a fire that destroyed 3.3 square miles of that city and left more than one hundred thousand people homeless in a city with a huge government fire department.

Quote:
Anyway, how do you want to fund police? Do you want a single police force for your community, funded by subscription that will only respond to calls/protect people who are paid up? Or multiple police forces paid by subscription, or some police forces paid exclusively by single rich persons or whatever combination of the above the market produces?


Yes, as I've explained many times.  Non-subscribers can also get police service on a pay-as-needed basis.  That would be good for your missing lawnmower.  You decide how many thousands of dollars you want spend looking for your rusty lawnmower and you pay it yourself instead of expecting "free" service.

Quote:
Here's a scenario, Billy and Joe show up at the scrapyard with a pickup truck load of good serviceable heat pumps the want to sell for scrap. There have been many complaints in the county recently of stolen heat pumps, the complaints being made to various different private police forces, and those police forces have notified the scrapyard to be on the lookout for people wanting to sell serviceable looking heat pumps.

Who does the owner of the scrapyard call? If she calls Bob's Security Services and Welding, LLC, they ask "Who were they stolen from?" and are answered "I don't know". Will Bob send some of his security employees out to arrest the thieves without knowing if the heat pumps they're trying to sell belong to his customers? Does Bob have the power to arrest people in the first place?

Where would private security forces get a legitimate power to arrest anyway? What would differentiate them from any old  gang of thugs "arresting" people and shaking them down for "fines"?

If Bob's employees stop you at random and arrest you for theft, demanding you pay a fine before they will release you, what is your recourse? Pay the fine and then call your own security service to tell them to get your money back from Bob's people? How will they do that? Will your security people be willing to spend large amounts of time and money trying to get your $100 "fine" back from Bob's guys? Will they have to shoot it out with Bob's people to get your $100 back?


The police forces will still be government, as I've explained many times.  Police, courts, prisons are one of the rare services that is necessarily a government function.

So the scrapyard would just call one the "various forces"that notified them about the stolen heat pumps, wouldn't they?  Isn't that the same thing that happens now?

EDIT:

Sorry, I just realized that you were responding to Some Voluntaryist, not me.

Carry on . . .


  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: Short but Powerful Documentary On Privatization of Police
Reply #16 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 1:59pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 1:42pm:
Interesting.  I just read a real book about the city of Chicago, one of the most over-governed cities in this nation and that says a lot.  Anyway in this actual book, a knocked over lantern let to a fire that destroyed 3.3 square miles of that city and left more than one hundred thousand people homeless in a city with a huge government fire department.

That was in 1871. Chicago was not governed much at all in those days. People put up wooden buildings in close proximity and there weren't reliable water supplies in most of the city.

Edit: I'm glad to hear you read an actual book!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Short but Powerful Documentary On Privatization of Police
Reply #17 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 2:02pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 1:42pm:
Yes, as I've explained many times.  Non-subscribers can also get police service on a pay-as-needed basis.  That would be good for your missing lawnmower.  You decide how many thousands of dollars you want spend looking for your rusty lawnmower and you pay it yourself instead of expecting "free" service.



And as I've replied many times, that would encourage thieves to prey on poor people, and why would the rich or middle class care, as long as the thieves weren't stealing from them...

But of course they would prey on middle class people too, they just wouldn't steal really expensive things from them. And hey, the thieves could subscribe to police protection for themselves! What a great idea!
  
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Re: Short but Powerful Documentary On Privatization of Police
Reply #18 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 2:11pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 1:42pm:
The police forces will still be government, as I've explained many times.  Police, courts, prisons are one of the rare services that is necessarily a government function.


So we agree that a minimum of government is necessary, and just disagree on how it should be funded.

People who want police protection and the use of the courts will just have to pay for it as they go, or alternatively, pay a monthly "subscription fee" just in case they ever need the police or the courts. Do you expect the courts to be impartial? If you're  a paid subscriber (and I'm not) and you file a complaint against me, the courts won't take note that you are paying them, and I'm not?

Won't thieves get hold of the subscription lists and just start robbing people who aren't paying the police?

  
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Re: Short but Powerful Documentary On Privatization of Police
Reply #19 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 3:59pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 2:11pm:
So we agree that a minimum of government is necessary, and just disagree on how it should be funded.

People who want police protection and the use of the courts will just have to pay for it as they go, or alternatively, pay a monthly "subscription fee" just in case they ever need the police or the courts. Do you expect the courts to be impartial? If you're  a paid subscriber (and I'm not) and you file a complaint against me, the courts won't take note that you are paying them, and I'm not?


I don't ever expect courts to be impartial no matter how they are funded. Because "courts" are just fallible human being appointed or elected to judgeships.  They aren't magical places of perfect justice now and they won't be when they are voluntarily funded.  Eliminating theft from government doesn't make government racketeers any more honest than they are now.  Eliminating funding through theft just reduces their opportunity for mischief. 

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Won't thieves get hold of the subscription lists and just start robbing people who aren't paying the police?



Only if they believe that voluntary funding of police makes police better at catching thieves by giving them an incentive to catch them. 

They wouldn't be wrong.


  

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