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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How Should Government Deal With Transgender Prisoners? (Read 1580 times)
Jeff
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Re: How Should Government Deal With Transgender Prisoners?
Reply #160 - Nov 20th, 2018 at 8:39am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 19th, 2018 at 10:53pm:
One of the things I get from my genius intellect is being able to see from outside my own biases.

Please, read that carefully.

Yes, I think pushing your male child to cut off its dick so you can be seen as a social justice hero is sick. I think it's just about the sickest thing your species does.

But I can see from a third-person perspective and look at what I think critically.

What if the thing that parent is doing ends up being some awesome survival strategy? What if the transgenders are so exalted in society that they essentially become royalty? (We're sort of there already.)

This is how I look at foot binding. Please read it this time. Yes, I think it's cruel and abusive, but as a result, many of those foot-bound girls became royalty.

Who am I to say that the offspring is better or worse off just because I think a practice is abusive?

The parent should decide those things.
Girls who had their feet bound were already "elites".

Your idea that transgenders will lead the world into a Golden Age doesn't strike me as being even remotely connected to reality and I can't imagine the sort of "critical thinking" that led you to it.

What do we know so far about the long term results of either the chemical castration of children or the actual genital mutilation of adults?

Certainly your critical thinking on the issue must have involved gathering some data regarding the current lives of castrated former boys?
Are they being "exalted" by society?
Do they personally feel like a new and superior kind of human?
  
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Jeff
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Re: How Should Government Deal With Transgender Prisoners?
Reply #161 - Nov 20th, 2018 at 9:00am
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Here's something to consider critically-

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

From the study's conclusions-

"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population."

Is that evidence of child abuse?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: How Should Government Deal With Transgender Prisoners?
Reply #162 - Nov 20th, 2018 at 10:15am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 20th, 2018 at 9:00am:
Here's something to consider critically-

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

From the study's conclusions-

"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population."

Is that evidence of child abuse?


It is several steps removed from child abuse for the following reasons:

First of all that study was conducted using the same techniques used by mind scientists, so I'm glad you put so much stock in our work.

The conclusion of that article mentions nothing about abuse:


Conclusions

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.


In fact, it states that gender reassignment does alleviate gender dysphoria, but that more follow up is needed. 

Your conclusion, that gender reassignment leads to suicidal behavior, is derived from the fallacy known as "post hoc, ergo propter hoc."  Just because transgenders had higher suicide rates post-reassignment than the general population doesn't mean that the reassignment caused the higher suicide rates.

It's like people who cite studies that when teenagers go off of certain anti-depressants, they have high rates of suicide and therefore blame the anti-depressants.  It is the depression itself that is much more likely to be causative of suicide than the anti-depressant medication, but that doesn't make a good news story.

To even try to arrive at the conclusion that gender reassignment increases suicide, you would have to compare them not to the general population but to people with gender dysphoria who were unable to get the reassignment.  My guess would be that people denied reassignment would have an even greater suicide rate.  Would that mean that denying reassignment is abusive?

For a purported libertarian, you sure are interested in government controlling our lives.  Should the transgender police be federal, state or local?  Can different states have different laws?  If so, why not just say different parents can make different decisions?

  

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Snarky Sack
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Re: How Should Government Deal With Transgender Prisoners?
Reply #163 - Nov 20th, 2018 at 12:07pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 19th, 2018 at 10:53pm:
One of the things I get from my genius intellect is being able to see from outside my own biases.

Please, read that carefully.

Yes, I think pushing your male child to cut off its dick so you can be seen as a social justice hero is sick. I think it's just about the sickest thing your species does.

But I can see from a third-person perspective and look at what I think critically.

What if the thing that parent is doing ends up being some awesome survival strategy? What if the transgenders are so exalted in society that they essentially become royalty? (We're sort of there already.)

This is how I look at foot binding. Please read it this time. Yes, I think it's cruel and abusive, but as a result, many of those foot-bound girls became royalty.

Who am I to say that the offspring is better or worse off just because I think a practice is abusive?

The parent should decide those things.


Wisely put, but I have a disagreement/caveat.

I have often stated that I believe that libertarianism is for adults.  Along with the natural rights that I believe our creator has endowed us (be "our creator" a bearded white anthropomorphic God or the process of evolution or something else entirely), I believe that we are endowed with one responsibility - taking care of our young.  That endowed responsibility is manifest in the way we and other species most similar to us do take care of our young.

When deciding whether we want government to interfere in the parent/child relationship, I believe we should look at how much permanent effect the parent's actions will have.  If a boy wants to be a girl and the parent lets him dress like one, I see no long-term harm.  Next year, he'll want to be a pro baseball player or an astronaut and dress like one.

Now, if the child insisted that he wanted to be a left-handed pitcher and so the parents are considering having his right arm removed, that is a time for the state to step in.  No one has the right to encourage or allow a child to take such a life altering step.  The same for any kind of sex-reassignment surgery or hormone therapy. 

Having said that, I also would caution that this enforced benevolence could easily get out of hand.  There's an extremely thin, yet very easily blurred, line between a government that stops parents from allowing sex reassignment surgery for a twelve year old and a government that jails parents for smacking a three year old on the butt with a wooden spoon. 

  

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Jeff
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Re: How Should Government Deal With Transgender Prisoners?
Reply #164 - Nov 20th, 2018 at 2:37pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 20th, 2018 at 12:07pm:
Now, if the child insisted that he wanted to be a left-handed pitcher and so the parents are considering having his right arm removed, that is a time for the state to step in.  No one has the right to encourage or allow a child to take such a life altering step.  The same for any kind of sex-reassignment surgery or hormone therapy. 

Having said that, I also would caution that this enforced benevolence could easily get out of hand.  There's an extremely thin, yet very easily blurred, line between a government that stops parents from allowing sex reassignment surgery for a twelve year old and a government that jails parents for smacking a three year old on the butt with a wooden spoon. 

I agree completely, but I think the state should only intervene by making child abuse illegal and try to define child abuse in the least expansive ways possible, then let juries decide, not CPS bureaucrats.

That's no guarantee that some legislature won't pass a law that says any sort of physical punishment at all is illegal, or some other legislature might not pass a law that says only physical punishment is allowed because any other sort of punishment is psychologically damaging, or that any punishment at all is child abuse.

As you note. it's tricky. I believe allowing and even encouraging children to believe that they are trapped in a body of the wrong sex, and going so far as to use drugs to prevent normal physical maturation does do long term psychological harm to children. Lots and lots of children in current Western society are confused about sexuality, and signing on to their temporary delusions, I think, is not only not helpful to them, but is counterproductive enough to amount to child abuse. Schools getting in on it by allowing boys to wrestle as girls and girls to use the boys restroom and teaching all the children to have respect for the confused children because they are supposedly genuinely "transgender" contributes to the abuse.

I was surprised to see you say "the state should step in".
  
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The Opposition
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Re: How Should Government Deal With Transgender Prisoners?
Reply #165 - Nov 20th, 2018 at 10:16pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 20th, 2018 at 8:39am:
Girls who had their feet bound were already "elites".


No, they were not. Not all. Some of them were rural poor who had their feet bound in hopes of marrying wealthy, and some of them did.

My knee-jerk reaction is the same as yours. I just see beyond that. There's a possibility it helps the kid. Let the parent decide.

You decide for your own kid, and if they think that making your child do chores is abuse, which a lot of the progressives types certainly do, tough shit. They get to decide for their own kid. You decide for yours. Let the results stand for themselves.

Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 20th, 2018 at 12:07pm:
Now, if the child insisted that he wanted to be a left-handed pitcher and so the parents are considering having his right arm removed, that is a time for the state to step in.  No one has the right to encourage or allow a child to take such a life altering step.  The same for any kind of sex-reassignment surgery or hormone therapy.


I could say the same thing about stupid people and everything they do.

In fact, I used to believe that people couldn't be trusted with their own well-being, and I was right.

The trouble is that no one has the right to interfere. Even if I do know best, it's wrong. If they %$#& themselves up, they have the right to do that.

Just the same way you would plead for self-determination if the Organians came to Earth and imposed perfect peace on you, even if it means you will make mistakes, I plead to you for the self-determination of those even less equipped to make their own decisions.

If you think children are too immature to make their own decisions, you should start applying this train of thought to people who haven't reached the Formal Operational stage. And then, you'd be a Statist, just like I was, and for the same reason.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: How Should Government Deal With Transgender Prisoners?
Reply #166 - Nov 26th, 2018 at 9:49am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 20th, 2018 at 10:16pm:
No, they were not. Not all. Some of them were rural poor who had their feet bound in hopes of marrying wealthy, and some of them did.

My knee-jerk reaction is the same as yours. I just see beyond that. There's a possibility it helps the kid. Let the parent decide.

And if you cripple your daughter for life and she isn't chosen to be the Emperor's consort? What do you do then? If you were a Chinese peasant, you'd kill her or maybe try to sell her into a brothel.

If you have a child that thinks they were born with a body of the wrong sex, tell them they can do whatever they want to do about it when they become an adult, but in the meantime, they will have to shower with sex appropriate peers and use sex appropriate restrooms.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How Should Government Deal With Transgender Prisoners?
Reply #167 - Nov 26th, 2018 at 9:51am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 20th, 2018 at 10:16pm:
In fact, I used to believe that people couldn't be trusted with their own well-being, and I was right.



And then, you'd be a Statist, just like I was, and for the same reason.
You say you're now a libertarian who realizes that adults need to be cared for by the government? Cheesy
  
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Re: How Should Government Deal With Transgender Prisoners?
Reply #168 - Nov 26th, 2018 at 11:40am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 26th, 2018 at 9:49am:
If you have a child that thinks they were born with a body of the wrong sex, tell them they can do whatever they want to do about it when they become an adult, but in the meantime, they will have to shower with sex appropriate peers and use sex appropriate restrooms.


They cannot opt out of these "sex appropriate showers?" 

What is your fascination with forcing middle school aged kids who aren't confident about their bodies to be naked in front of strangers?


  

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Re: How Should Government Deal With Transgender Prisoners?
Reply #169 - Nov 26th, 2018 at 7:36pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 26th, 2018 at 11:40am:
They cannot opt out of these "sex appropriate showers?" 

What is your fascination with forcing middle school aged kids who aren't confident about their bodies to be naked in front of strangers?


Schedule phys ed for the last period of the day, and make parents of kids who don't want to shower after pick up their kids so they don't stink up the bus.

Some children fear speaking to groups. Part of education is helping children to learn to overcome and control their discomfort in all sorts of situations. Children are often cruel to each other for all sorts of reasons, just like adults are often cruel to each other for all sorts of reasons.

I happen to think learning to deal with that fact of the human world should start young, as should learning that physical appearance is not anywhere near the most important characteristic of a human being.

  
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