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Snarky Sack
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The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Nov 16th, 2018 at 10:16am
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If the non-aggression principle is the fundamental theorem of libertarianism is aggression the  fundamental theorem of statism?

No.

Most statists don't think it through enough to realize what their fundamental theorem is.  Their thought process goes no further than "I want what I want, period."

But when statists think, or are forced to try to think, what they come up with always amounts to this principle:

By forming a government, individuals can grant themselves the right to take actions through that government that they would never have the right to take without a government.


For example, without a government, could an individual order an eighteen year old to move out of his parents' house, abandon his college or job, go to another state to be trained to kill and then send him to a foreign country he never heard of until he was ordered there and to start killing?

No.

An individual who seriously thought he had a right to do that would be a candidate for commitment.  But, in the statist mindset, banding together and forming a government does indeed grant the "right" to take that bizarre action.  Their only caveat is that you have to refer to those "rights" as "powers" but do it in a moralistic tone that leaves no doubt that there is no difference.

The same principle applies to the theft of taxation, vice laws, imminent domain and many other "rights/powers" that statists claim for themselves as long as it is done through government.

I'd like to seriously thank the statists on here whose evasive non-answers led me to answer the questions for myself and to realize this fundamental flaw in their thinking.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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SkyChief
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #1 - Nov 16th, 2018 at 12:28pm
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Some relevant quotes on taxation

“If taxation without consent is not robbery, then any band of robbers have only to declare themselves a government, and all their robberies are legalized.”  - Lysander Spooner


"Not thinking things through is the cornerstone of statist thought."  - SnarkySack

"Taxation:  a policy in which the government forcibly takes money from an individual in order to provide that individual with a service he neither needs nor wants" - Sky Chief
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #2 - Nov 16th, 2018 at 3:51pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 16th, 2018 at 10:16am:
If the non-aggression principle is the fundamental theorem of libertarianism is aggression the  fundamental theorem of statism?

No.


Have you never heard of Young Kim?

Edit: Geez, I realize more explanation will be needed.

Kings and Emperors and Tsars ruled by force.

Nothing exists on the spectrum beyond Universal Ruler, and that is the Ruler of the State.

That's the essence of aggression spread large and destined to wreak havoc somewhere at some time. Pure statism is the rule of an individual Tyrant.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #3 - Nov 16th, 2018 at 9:15pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 16th, 2018 at 3:51pm:
Have you never heard of Young Kim?

Edit: Geez, I realize more explanation will be needed.

Kings and Emperors and Tsars ruled by force.

Nothing exists on the spectrum beyond Universal Ruler, and that is the Ruler of the State.

That's the essence of aggression spread large and destined to wreak havoc somewhere at some time. Pure statism is the rule of an individual Tyrant.


Right.

But it starts with that fundamental theorem that the collective has the right to take actions that would clearly be aggressive crimes if done by any one of the individuals that make up that collective. 

Examples being that slavery is "legal" if it is called "conscription for the defense of the nation."  Theft is "legal" if it is called, "taxes that everyone pretty much agrees 'need to be' collected."

If any one person stole money by force or forced someone into labor, those actions would be aggressive crimes. 

Or any two persons.

Or any three persons.

On and on until you reach the magic number at which the group  of individuals can form a "legitimate government," meaning in the statist definition, "an organization that can rightfully do that which would be wrong for individuals to do.

But, yes.  The end result of that thinking is almost always tyranny.


BTW, what is that magic number?

  

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The Opposition
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #4 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 1:00am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 16th, 2018 at 10:16am:
If the non-aggression principle is the fundamental theorem of libertarianism is aggression the  fundamental theorem of statism?


I always thought it was fairness before all else.

If someone gains an unreasonable advantage by (for example) murdering, while reaping the added benefit of a society wherein most people don't murder, the State should step in and put a stop to it.

If some business is bullying Petunia by paying her 3¢/hour while using the excess her labour provides to pay Jimmy (their close friend) twenty dollars an hour, the State should step in and stop it. (Now, when I mean if this is happening, I mean prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, Pentunia. If you can't, tough shit. Courts should act on proof, not hearsay or fee-fees.)

If a couple can't afford a baby with both of them working, but a welfare mum can afford twelve without working, the State should step in and put a stop to that, too.

Obviously this is ideal Statism, but no one is prevented from discussing ideal Libertarianism, so I think it's fair. Neither is particularly practical.

I also think ideal Statism fundamentally necessitates eugenics, because the largest source of unfairness is inborn advantages, and try as you might, the only policy that will actually address this unfairness is to just give the advantages to everyone.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #5 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 7:58am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 16th, 2018 at 9:15pm:
Right.

But it starts with that fundamental theorem that the collective has the right to take actions that would clearly be aggressive crimes if done by any one of the individuals that make up that collective. 
No people in history that I know of have ever created a government for themselves that was headed by an all powerful dictator. People don't knowingly and willingly create tyrannical governments for themselves except under one extreme condition... People will elevate a tyrant to rule them in order to escape anarchy.

The enumerated powers granted to the federal government by the U.S. Constitution, operating within the system of government designed by the Constitution cannot lead to tyranny by any individual or even by any group within the government. It is well designed to Preserve the Blessings of Liberty by preventing tyranny by government.

There is a serious problem and real danger in the fact that your precious SCOTUS has found broad powers where only limited enumerated powers were granted and has ignored the still existing limits on the power of taxation.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #6 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 8:02am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 1:00am:
If some business is bullying Petunia by paying her 3¢/hour while using the excess her labour provides to pay Jimmy (their close friend) twenty dollars an hour, the State should step in and stop it.
That's a very bad idea.

There are many examples of governments having the power to set wages and prices by law, and the results are uniformly very bad to even worse.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #7 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 8:05am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 1:00am:
If a couple can't afford a baby with both of them working, but a welfare mum can afford twelve without working, the State should step in and put a stop to that, too.

Yes, put a stop to the "welfare". It's a failed policy based on a flawed principle that's proven itself  to not only not work, but to have serious bad unintended consequences...

Weren't you just talking abut putting principles to the test in the real world? Why not do it with the principle that lies behind the policies of the redistributionist welfare state.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #8 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 9:13am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 7:58am:
No people in history that I know of have ever created a government for themselves that was headed by an all powerful dictator. People don't knowingly and willingly create tyrannical governments for themselves except under one extreme condition... People will elevate a tyrant to rule them in order to escape anarchy.
Actually, the German people voted in the Nazi Party during a time of exactly the type of constitutional government with "limited taxing power" that you advocate.


But you misunderstand my point.  I'm not talking about dictatorships that openly use force and force alone and make no pretense of working for the good of the people.

I'm talking about the kind of government that statists such as yourself  advocate as a moral force for good.  They, like dictatorships, are based entirely on force.  The difference is that statists who advocate that kind of "beneficial" government are embarrassed about the force required for what the prefer to think of as their own benevolence and generosity.

Their justification boils down to "might makes right," but they don't want to admit it.

  

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Snarky Sack
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #9 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 9:21am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 7:58am:
There is a serious problem and real danger in the fact that your precious SCOTUS has found broad powers where only limited enumerated powers were granted and has ignored the still existing limits on the power of taxation.


So, what are you hoping the USSC will do?  "Pass a law" that renders the XVI Amendment invalid?  Here is the text:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

That is one of the few clauses of the constitution that isn't vague.  What is it that you wanted the court to rule about it?
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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