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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Fundamental Theorem of Statism (Read 877 times)
Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #10 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 10:48am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 9:13am:
Actually, the German people voted in the Nazi Party during a time of exactly the type of constitutional government with "limited taxing power" that you advocate.

It wasn't exactly the German people electing a dictator-

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/adolf-hitler-becomes-president-of-ge...

And not only did Germany have a failed government at the time, but the country was devolving into anarchy.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #11 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 10:56am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 9:13am:
But you misunderstand my point.  I'm not talking about dictatorships that openly use force and force alone and make no pretense of working for the good of the people.

I'm talking about the kind of government that statists such as yourself  advocate as a moral force for good.  They, like dictatorships, are based entirely on force.  The difference is that statists who advocate that kind of "beneficial" government are embarrassed about the force required for what the prefer to think of as their own benevolence and generosity.

Their justification boils down to "might makes right," but they don't want to admit it.

Are you describing the current government of the U.S.? The one we have as a direct result of your precious SCOTUS finding grants of general power in the Constitution and ignoring the limits on the taxing power?

Our government, as it was designed, was supposed to be a limited government that was tasked with a few important missions that are indeed actually good, like national defense and sound money with generally constant value and protection for property of all kinds and the protection of individual rights.

The framers assumed that the good things would come on their own if they created a limited government that would leave people essentially alone to create their own goods as they saw fit.

I'm not at all embarrassed about legal taxation. I think it's a necessary thing if you want to have a government to protect lives and property and liberty.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #12 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 4:28pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 10:56am:
Are you describing the current government of the U.S.? The one we have as a direct result of your precious SCOTUS finding grants of general power in the Constitution and ignoring the limits on the taxing power?


The USSC didn't "find" any grant of general power, they exercised the judicial power granted to the USSC by your precious constitution.

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Our government, as it was designed, was supposed to be a limited government that was tasked with a few important missions that are indeed actually good, like national defense and sound money with generally constant value and protection for property of all kinds and the protection of individual rights.


But they do much more than that and the constitution allows them to.  So if it was "designed" to limit government, we have to say, 'design failure.'

Quote:
The framers assumed that the good things would come on their own if they created a limited government that would leave people essentially alone to create their own goods as they saw fit.


This is an old one, but you seem to not have heard it yet:

When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me.

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I'm not at all embarrassed about legal taxation. I think it's a necessary thing if you want to have a government to protect lives and property and liberty.


Your consistent refusal to dodge questions and your pretense that it isn't initiation of force tells me you are indeed embarrassed by it.

If you were proud of it, you would say, "The police who throw people out of their homes so the homes can be auctioned for taxes are the heroes of our system!  Without them, we honest people would be beset by freeloaders!"
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #13 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 5:40pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 4:28pm:
The USSC didn't "find" any grant of general power, they exercised the judicial power granted to the USSC by your precious constitution.
It seems that you left off the last part of your statement, the part that might have made it make sense.

Try again.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #14 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 5:44pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 4:28pm:
Your consistent refusal to dodge questions...
I think it's wrong to dodge honest questions (unless it's your wife asking you "Does this dress make me look fat?" Then you are required to improvise and tell her sweet things.)

Sorry, back on track, do you think I should start dodging questions? I won't do it!
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #15 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 6:38pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 5:44pm:
I think it's wrong to dodge honest questions


No you don't. That, or you think it's wrong but you do it anyway.

No one on this forum but you is obsessed with being right and winning every time. No one uses dirty tactics except you.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Snarky Sack
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #16 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 6:48pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 5:44pm:
I think it's wrong to dodge honest questions (unless it's your wife asking you "Does this dress make me look fat?" Then you are required to improvise and tell her sweet things.)


Ok, you got me with that one.  Obviously I meant to chide you for refusing to answer questions/consistently dodging questions.  Good one!

Quote:
Sorry, back on track, do you think I should start dodging questions? I won't do it!



No, I would like for you to stop dodging questions.  But I certainly don't expect you to.
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #17 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 7:19pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 6:38pm:
No one on this forum but you is obsessed with being right and winning every time. No one uses dirty tactics except you.
I'm pretty serious about finding the best possible ways to allow the maximum number of people to enjoy the maximum amount of individual liberty possible. I'm always looking for good, better best ways to do that.

Your proposals are bad. You try to prettify them, you try to make them seem what they are not, you claim all language is "vague and open to interpretation", therefore nothing means anything and we should wait for the Sack's precious SCOTUS and the bureaucrats to tell us what is best for us and our country, and keep changing what the law "really" means...

Those are dirty tactics.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #18 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 7:22pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 7:19pm:
I'm pretty serious about finding the best possible ways to allow the maximum number of people to enjoy the maximum amount of individual liberty possible. I'm always looking for good, better best ways to do that.


I think you want the maximum liberty possible, for yourself.

This is pretty much every libertarian.

But at some point, pure selfishness fails. You can't get anyone to root for your policies because they see that all those policies do is advantage you personally.

Jeff wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 7:19pm:
Your proposals are bad. You try to prettify them, you try to make them seem what they are not, you claim all language is "vague and open to interpretation", therefore nothing means anything and we should wait for the Sack's precious SCOTUS and the bureaucrats to tell us what is best for us and our country, and keep changing what the law "really" means...

Those are dirty tactics.


You're describing yourself. I don't have any proposals. The worst I do is question why you can justifiably have your exceptions to your principles and I can't have mine.

Give an example of anything I have proposed, as in, I want it to actually be implemented in America.

I bet you can't.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #19 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 7:32pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
No, I would like for you to stop dodging questions.  But I certainly don't expect you to.
Give me a try. What's your question?
  
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