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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Fundamental Theorem of Statism (Read 879 times)
Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #90 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 7:54am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 4th, 2018 at 4:01pm:
Now, I don't know.  Where do rights come from?  Could Jeff be right in his claim that we only have rights that government grants us and that they can be taken away at any time by a majority vote or a representative of a plurality in a republic?

Rights are inherent to every human, we are born with them. I've said that dozens of times on this forum. Governments can't grant rights, they can only grant privileges, and only then if they are authorized to grant privileges.

Certainly governments can deny or abridge rights, which is why it's so important to have a strictly limited government the purpose of which is to protect rights.

Read this-

https://www.libertarianism.org/encyclopedia/rights-natural

It might help you to better understand rights.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #91 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 7:57am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 4th, 2018 at 9:43pm:
Those who discover rights will discover the rights which benefit them most.
If what is discovered is an actual right, it belongs to everyone equally and will benefit everyone equally.

Perhaps you'd give an example of something you think is a right that doesn't apply equally to everyone? We could have an adult discussion about it!
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #92 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 8:38am
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Snarky Sack
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #93 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 9:19am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 7:54am:
Rights are inherent to every human, we are born with them. I've said that dozens of times on this forum. Governments can't grant rights, they can only grant privileges, and only then if they are authorized to grant privileges.

Certainly governments can deny or abridge rights,


You just contradicted yourself. If there is a right to own property, then government cannot deny or abridge it, government can either respect it or violate it. 

Unless you can tell me where this "right to tax" you believe that members of a community have comes from?

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Snarky Sack
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #94 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 9:26am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 7:54am:
Read this-

https://www.libertarianism.org/encyclopedia/rights-natural

It might help you to better understand rights.


If you actually read that, I'm happy you are trying to make progress.  Most of us on this forum are already familiar with that kind of basic thought on rights, but you may be able to catch up with us if you keep reading.

If it is true that we gain the right to own property by the work our selves which we own naturally, and that we form governments to protect those rights, then that government cannot be funded by the use of any force.  Because as soon as the government we form uses force to take the property of others, it has ceased to be an agency of protection of property rights and has become an agency that transfers wealth from its creators to non-creators. 

Taxes are theft on both a practical and a philosophical level. 
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #95 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 4:07pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 9:19am:
You just contradicted yourself. If there is a right to own property, then government cannot deny or abridge it, government can either respect it or violate it. 


Denying and abridging rights is violating them.

People in Cuba have lots of rights that are denied to them by their government. Government tyranny that denies rights does happen, is happening in many places in the world today. The rights still exist, people still have them, it's just a bad government is not allowing the rights to be freely exercised.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #96 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 5:05pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 9:26am:
If you actually read that, I'm happy you are trying to make progress.  Most of us on this forum are already familiar with that kind of basic thought on rights, but you may be able to catch up with us if you keep reading.
No long ago at all, you said this Sack-

"Now, I don't know.  Where do rights come from?"
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #97 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 5:13pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 9:26am:
If it is true that we gain the right to own property by the work our selves which we own naturally, and that we form governments to protect those rights, then that government cannot be funded by the use of any force. 
The libertarian position is that you have the right to own property, and also that you own the product of your labor, that you trade your labor for property when you work for wages and salaries.

You seem to be finally understanding that much, that wages and salaries are property and that their taxation, merely because of their ownership, must be apportioned.

It doesn't follow that taxation is forbidden.

Try not to apply ideal theories to reality. In an ideal world we wouldn't need any government or laws. Simply getting rid of government and law won't magically create ideal people.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #98 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 9:27pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 7:57am:
If what is discovered is an actual right, it belongs to everyone equally and will benefit everyone equally.


It will not benefit everyone equally. Before basic rights were discovered, the aggressive and strong ruled the day. The idea that the smart are entitled to our natural advantages over the strong but that the strong are not entitled to their natural advantages, definitely benefits the smart more than the strong.

Capitalism is inherently about competition. Succeed, by hurting another. Everyone is in competition with everyone else, at all times. Every ill someone else suffers equals your benefit.

The idea that the guy with the great big arms yells out, "No kicking!" and the guy with the big legs has to respect that newly-discovered right as he's punched into submission is laughable.

Do you see a difference between that, and libertarians declaring open season on harming others as long as it's not aggression? If so, do tell.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Fundamental Theorem of Statism
Reply #99 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 8:34am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 9:27pm:
Capitalism is inherently about competition. Succeed, by hurting another. Everyone is in competition with everyone else, at all times. Every ill someone else suffers equals your benefit.

No lizard, free markets operate on mutually agreed to trades, and the result of mutually agreed to trades is that both parties to the trade win and wealth is created.

How about you giving an example of a right that doesn't benefit everyone equally?

I know, you think you just did by saying that the right to benefit from your intelligence favors smart people over physically strong people, but that's only because you are imagining that a right should produce equal outcomes, which is absurd. Everyone has not only an equal right to try to benefit from their intelligence, but also an equal right to try to benefit from their physical attributes. Some smart people will do well, but so will some people who are gifted with good physical skills.

The idea that force and fraud may not be used to steal or do physical harm to others arises from rights to property, which everyone possesses equally.
  
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