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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rubber Dogshit at the Dollar General (Read 683 times)
Jeff
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Re: Rubber Dogshit at the Dollar General
Reply #60 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 8:16am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 9:16pm:
Why would white labour have gotten the jobs?

Because of racial prejudice lizard. If plantation owners had to pay a living wage to workers, they would choose to pay it to whites because they believed that blacks were inferior.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Rubber Dogshit at the Dollar General
Reply #61 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 8:23am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 9:16pm:
If people are not owned, the cost of children is something no landowner is ever forced to bear. He will simply let the current population die off and import labour from the third world.
You just can't seem to understand free markets in labor or how advances in technology change labor markets or how free people are able to re-educate themselves and adapt to changing labor markets.

People still grow cotton in the U.S., but they pick it and gin it with machines. There is no longer a need for cheap labor in the production of cotton, or sugar cane, and now, not much need for cheap labor in the production of tobacco either. (Tobacco grown for nicotine to be used for vaping can be harvested entirely by machines.)
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Rubber Dogshit at the Dollar General
Reply #62 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 8:34am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 8:21am:
Once again, your ignorance of the large body of writings left to us by the founders of America is all that allows you to portray Washington Jefferson and Madison as evil slavers. They were in fact people who inherited the institution of slavery from the British and couldn't figure out a way to end it that wouldn't lead to a great disaster for everyone involved.

Simply freeing the slaves that an individual owned didn't have good results at all, and all of them knew it.


Are you seriously arguing that kept their slaves enslaved but that it was for the slaves' own good? 

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In many cases where slaves were freed, they chose to stay and serve their former masters.


Right, they chose.  Which was far better than being forced.  Unless you are just enamored by the idea of the use of force, which it seems pretty clear that you are.

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In many cases where they left after being freed, they were re-enslaved by someone else before they could get to a free state. Even if they reached a free state, they were frequently claimed as slaves by someone who didn't own them and returned to slave states.


Sounds like you're pretty angry at those fraudulent claims when it was the "real owners" who should have had the slaves.

How is being re-enslaved any worse than being a cotton-picking slave on Washington's plantation or getting raped by Jefferson?

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In almost all cases, even in free states, they were unwelcome, looked on as inferior and given jobs fit only for slaves at wages that usually didn't allow them to live as well as they had when they were slaves.


"Live as well as they had when they were slaves?"  Oh, my Gawd!

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You call the behavior of Washington Madison and Jefferson "deplorable" because you fail to understand the realities facing freed slaves in America. They were in fact very moral men, greatly conflicted over their inability to find a solution to slavery and keeping slaves because they knew that freeing them would be, in almost every case, worse for the people they freed than keeping them as slaves.
So, it was for their own good?

How did the mass freeing of all slaves, which you claim to advocate, solve those problems?

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Washington, Jefferson and Madison were not breeders of slaves for profit. They didn't separate families or "sell slaves South". They didn't murder slaves or beat them. There were people that owned slaves who did such things, but they were not the people that created America or framed the Constitution... They were the people who refused to join the Union unless their "property rights in slaves" were protected.


That's absurd.  It was Madison who wrote the constitution.

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That the founders of America believed the survival of the new nation depended on having the slave states join the Union is certain, as it is also certain that they believed that economics would make slavery unprofitable and the institution would fade away without war, be outlawed by state governments in more and more states until it was gone from America.


You have no evidence that they thought that way.  You're simply making things up to defend slavery and slavers.


  

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Jeff
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Re: Rubber Dogshit at the Dollar General
Reply #63 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:02am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 8:34am:
That's absurd.  It was Madison who wrote the constitution.
Madison went to the constitutional convention with a plan that was debated and altered before it was accepted by the convention and sent to the states for ratification.

The references in the ratified Constitution to slavery were not Madison's.

Slavery was an evil institution.

Slave owners such as Madison and Jefferson knew it was immoral and evil, but they didn't know how to end it without creating what they saw as extremely bad results, and they were cognizant of the usual results of freeing slaves, which generally weren't good.

It's easy to say "just free them if you own them", but if you view them as people and feel any obligation to them, as Madison and Jefferson both did, then you might consider what would happen to them if you freed them. And BTW, if you freed all your slaves and started paying them as tenant farmers, and the result was that you went bankrupt and lost your plantation, what happened to your freed slaves then?

You should also consider that slave owners were a part of the larger community in slave states where slavery was made legal by laws, and that huge pressure was exerted by slave owners who saw their slaves as property against anyone who freed slaves. The pressure to maintain slavery as an institution came not just from slave owners, but from religious leaders and the general population. It's nice to imagine that that sort of social pressure would have no effect on a persons actions, but it does.

Even the Abolitionists in free states, who wanted all slaves freed, didn't want free blacks moving to their neighborhoods, they wanted them to stay in the South or be sent back to Africa.

Edit: What happened to freed slaves in the South after the war to end slavery was a bad result, and it continued to be a bad result for generations.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Rubber Dogshit at the Dollar General
Reply #64 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:15am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:02am:
Madison went to the constitutional convention with a plan that was debated and altered before it was accepted by the convention and sent to the states for ratification.

The references in the ratified Constitution to slavery were not Madison's.

Slavery was an evil institution.

Slave owners such as Madison and Jefferson knew it was immoral and evil, but they didn't know how to end it without creating what they saw as extremely bad results, and they were cognizant of the usual results of freeing slaves, which generally weren't good.

It's easy to say "just free them if you own them", but if you view them as people and feel any obligation to them, as Madison and Jefferson both did, then you might consider what would happen to them if you freed them. And BTW, if you freed all your slaves and started paying them as tenant farmers, and the result was that you went bankrupt and lost your plantation, what happened to your freed slaves then?


Ok, first of all *sigh* one does not pay people as tenant farmers, the tenant farmers pay the land owners.  That system worked very well for landowners in Europe and England during those same  years.  The "landed gentry" got a steady income from the rents paid by their tenants while those who knew how to farm got access to land with which to generate the wealth to pay the rent and to sustain themselves.

More importantly than that is that  you now make clear that you prefer slavery to the free market since the free market means that sometimes there will be failures and you imagine that the more government controls the economy, the more perfectly and fairly the economy will perform.  That is why you support the theft of taxation, the slavery of conscription and the slavery of slavery.
  

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Re: Rubber Dogshit at the Dollar General
Reply #65 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:27am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:15am:
Ok, first of all *sigh* one does not pay people as tenant farmers, the tenant farmers pay the land owners.  That system worked very well for landowners in Europe and England during those same  years.  The "landed gentry" got a steady income from the rents paid by their tenants while those who knew how to farm got access to land with which to generate the wealth to pay the rent and to sustain themselves.

Right. You proposed a somewhat different system for freed slaves, one where they would get "free" room and board and work for low wages.
  
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Re: Rubber Dogshit at the Dollar General
Reply #66 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:32am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:15am:
More importantly than that is that  you now make clear that you prefer slavery to the free market since the free market means that sometimes there will be failures and you imagine that the more government controls the economy, the more perfectly and fairly the economy will perform.
No, I hate the idea of slavery, I just recognize that freed slaves were not allowed to participate freely in a free economy. There was certainly no free market for black labor in states where slavery was the law, and there was pervasive discrimination against blacks even in free states.

How many times must I say that free markets work and government controlled markets fail?
  
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Re: Rubber Dogshit at the Dollar General
Reply #67 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:43am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:32am:
No, I hate the idea of slavery, I just recognize that freed slaves were not allowed to participate freely in a free economy. There was certainly no free market for black labor in states where slavery was the law, and there was pervasive discrimination against blacks even in free states.


That was inevitable and was the result of the slavery itself, not a result of freeing of slaves.  Holding generation after generation in slavery until a perfect solution is found isn't the answer that moral people would have come up with. 

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How many times must I say that free markets work and government controlled markets fail?


Your supposed defense of free markets ring hollow when they come right after your lengthy defense of slavery on the grounds that freed slaves would be disadvantaged in a free market when competing against people who have been free all their lives.

They would, but that problem is caused by slavery itself, not by the freeing of slaves. 
  

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Re: Rubber Dogshit at the Dollar General
Reply #68 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 1:31pm
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Snarky Sack wrote Today at 9:15am:
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Ok, first of all *sigh* one does not pay people as tenant farmers, the tenant farmers pay the land owners.  That system worked very well for landowners in Europe and England during those same  years.  The "landed gentry" got a steady income from the rents paid by their tenants while those who knew how to farm got access to land with which to generate the wealth to pay the rent and to sustain themselves.


Jeff wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:27am:
Right. You proposed a somewhat different system for freed slaves, one where they would get "free" room and board and work for low wages.


Yes, it was you who brought up tenant farming.  I was just explaining it to you to help you avoid looking foolish again.

The wages the freed slaves would have worked for if the founders had had the moral courage to free them would have been the wages upon which they agreed.  That's what being a free person in a free economy means.

Under your system, they were instead provided room and board, but not in exchange for their work.  Their masters would have happily refused to feed them if they would have still been able to work while starving.  Their "payment" for working was avoiding the lash, much the same as we pay taxes "in exchange" for not being imprisoned or killed.

It's astounding that you can't see that the lowest paid farm worker is in a better condition than a slave.
  

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Re: Rubber Dogshit at the Dollar General
Reply #69 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 4:13pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:43am:
That was inevitable and was the result of the slavery itself
You have it upside down as usual.

It was the belief that black and dark skinned people were inferior, less than human, or at least not fully human, and really almost beasts Shocked that gave justification to chattel slavery. It is tribal thinking. Please don't encourage it.
  
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