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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh? (Read 365 times)
SkyChief
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Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Nov 29th, 2018 at 1:59pm
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Rosa Maria Ortega, a green-card holder and mother of four who was charged with fraud for voting in the 2012 and 2014 elections, could spend eight years in prison and will likely face deportation to Mexico after her sentence is served.

"That's a good thing. We will hold those accountable who falsely claim eligibility and purposely subvert the election process in Texas."   -  Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton

Ortega admitted that she's been voting illegally since 2004.

https://reason.com/blog/2018/11/28/8-years-in-prison-for-voting-illegally-i



Eight years seems a little very harsh, IMO.  Maybe 6 months and deportation.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #1 - Nov 29th, 2018 at 4:15pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 1:59pm:
Rosa Maria Ortega, a green-card holder and mother of four who was charged with fraud for voting in the 2012 and 2014 elections, could spend eight years in prison and will likely face deportation to Mexico after her sentence is served.

"That's a good thing. We will hold those accountable who falsely claim eligibility and purposely subvert the election process in Texas."   -  Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton

Ortega admitted that she's been voting illegally since 2004.

https://reason.com/blog/2018/11/28/8-years-in-prison-for-voting-illegally-i



Eight years seems a little very harsh, IMO.  Maybe 6 months and deportation.
I would rather that the people who allowed her to vote be punished. They can't be deported, but what do you think would be a fair sentence for that sort of election fraud?

Or is it just carelessness?

I think investigations should be conducted, and the people who got elected shouldn't be in charge of the investigations.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #2 - Nov 29th, 2018 at 9:13pm
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There's nothing wrong with what she did. She should not be in prison at all.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #3 - Nov 29th, 2018 at 10:41pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 9:13pm:
There's nothing wrong with what she did. She should not be in prison at all.

Voter fraud is OK in your book?  Most illogical.

  
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The Opposition
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #4 - Nov 30th, 2018 at 12:59am
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Show me the aggression. If you can find it, I'll concede.

I'm making a bold claim that voting without citizenship is not wrong precisely because I want you to do everything in your power to convince me otherwise.

I'm open to it. So go ahead.

I actually think...

...flinch...

...Jeff might be on the right track here. I don't see how it can be wrong to push a button or mark a box when you have been specifically let to. If you have issue, it's probably with the people who are supposed to be the custodians of those buttons and/or boxes.

Regardless... immigrants, illegal or not, green cards or not, are governed by the United States government. If the right to vote is derived from the only way to make government legitimate - consent of the governed - then everyone who is governed should have the right to vote.

This is how I see it. Convince me otherwise.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #5 - Nov 30th, 2018 at 10:11am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 12:59am:
Show me the aggression. If you can find it, I'll concede.

If half the people in China vote in our elections, they could force us to have elected officials that we didn't choose or in some cases, state laws or state constitutional changes that we didn't choose.

That's force.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #6 - Nov 30th, 2018 at 10:17am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 12:59am:
...Jeff might be on the right track here. I don't see how it can be wrong to push a button or mark a box when you have been specifically let to. If you have issue, it's probably with the people who are supposed to be the custodians of those buttons and/or boxes.

Regardless... immigrants, illegal or not, green cards or not, are governed by the United States government. If the right to vote is derived from the only way to make government legitimate - consent of the governed - then everyone who is governed should have the right to vote.

This is how I see it. Convince me otherwise.
Aliens, illegal or not, have chosen to be here and at least tacitly agreed to be governed by our existing laws while they are here.

If they choose to become citizens, then they can vote and have a voice in the laws that govern them. If they do not become citizens, their tacit agreement to be governed by our government and it's current laws and elected officials stands.

You think people should be permitted to vote in more than one country? Why?

BTW, voting is not a right, it is part of a process created by people when they create certain forms of government. It is possible for a government to be granted power to decide who should be granted the privilege of voting, and that power could extend to permitting universal suffrage, but that doesn't make voting a right. Governments can't grant rights, they can only deny rights or grant privileges.

In short, actual rights existed prior to the formation of governments, and the creation of a government does not create any rights that didn't previously exist. The privilege of voting for a representative in the House did not exist until the House of Representatives was created. It is not a right.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #7 - Nov 30th, 2018 at 11:16am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 10:11am:
If half the people in China vote in our elections, they could force us to have elected officials that we didn't choose or in some cases, state laws or state constitutional changes that we didn't choose.

That's force.


You can't be serious. Living under a policy you didn't choose is force? You realise about 49% of us do that for every policy, riiiight?

But okay. Let's use your logic.

The people in China don't live under our laws. If they did, and we stopped them from voting, it would be they who were living under policies they didn't choose, and that would be force.

You're seriously upset because I cut through the crap like you Earth men ain't never seen.

If you tell me, 'here is a crime,' then I will say, 'show me the victim.'
- Me

Show me where the bad Mexican lady touched you.

By your own logic, if there was no policy change because of her, there was no force.

These are your axioms. I simply apply them. Maybe I'm just not in on the joke.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #8 - Nov 30th, 2018 at 12:06pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 12:59am:
Show me the aggression. If you can find it, I'll concede.

I'm making a bold claim that voting without citizenship is not wrong precisely because I want you to do everything in your power to convince me otherwise.


If a Mexican citizen votes in a US election, he/she effectively can cancel my vote.

There's the aggression. 

I have a (15th Amendment) right to vote in a US general election - they don't.

It would be equally wrong if I were to vote in a Mexican election.

This is so glaringly simple, how can you not see it?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #9 - Nov 30th, 2018 at 1:23pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 11:16am:
You can't be serious. Living under a policy you didn't choose is force? You realise about 49% of us do that for every policy, riiiight?

Often more than that lizard, I'd say sometimes it's closer to everyone.

I realize you are incapable of understanding the type of consent of the governed that is built into our constitutional republic, or at least was before the TwoParties were given "legal" control of the electoral process.
  
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