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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh? (Read 367 times)
Jeff
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #30 - Dec 2nd, 2018 at 5:05pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 9:55am:
Don't you claim that the current income taxes are already illegal under the current constitution? 
What I say is that taxing wages and salaries is Direct taxation in a legal sense, and that if such taxes are laid and collected without apportionment, they are unconstitutional by reason of a lack of apportionment.

That doesn't mean that taxes on income derived from the use of property (incomes) can't be levied without apportionment, although they do have to be uniform.

There are two conflicting interpretations of uniform. One of them can be used by Congress to pick winners and losers, the other cannot.

Which interpretation do you subscribe to Sack?

The statist crony capitalist "progressive" interpretation?
  
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #31 - Dec 2nd, 2018 at 8:06pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 5:05pm:
What I say is that taxing wages and salaries is Direct taxation in a legal sense, and that if such taxes are laid and collected without apportionment, they are unconstitutional by reason of a lack of apportionment.


But, they are still being collected.

So, what would be the point of a constitutional amendment again banning them?  To give our elected representatives an intellectual puzzle to figure out yet another work-around so that they can keep buying votes?  They'll gain time to do that by financing your welfare check through borrowing and printing until they get the income tax going again.

Quote:
That doesn't mean that taxes on income derived from the use of property (incomes) can't be levied without apportionment, although they do have to be uniform.


Meaning every single person pays the same amount?  Everyone pays the same percentage?  What does "uniform" look like in Jeff-atopia?

Quote:
There are two conflicting interpretations of uniform. One of them can be used by Congress to pick winners and losers, the other cannot.

Which interpretation do you subscribe to Sack?

The statist crony capitalist "progressive" interpretation?


Oh, I have no opinion as to what the term "uniform" means when it comes to the theft of taxation.  I see no difference between John Dillinger taking half of a rich bank's money and John Dillinger taking thirty percent of the bank's money and also thirty percent from each customer that happened to be in the bank so it will be "uniform."

You might be able to explain that difference to me.  Please be specific, thank you.



  

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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #32 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 8:45am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 8:06pm:
But, they are still being collected.

So, what would be the point of a constitutional amendment again banning them?
Taxes on wages and salaries levied without apportionment are justified by the legal fiction that the 16th Amendment authorizes them.

There is already a constitutional ban on levying Direct taxes without apportionment, but the 16th Amendment, intended only to restore the power to tax profits derived from the use of property without apportionment is being intentionally misconstrued as an authority to levy taxes on wages and salaries without apportionment.

As you know, this is done by defining wages and salaries as "income", which they are not.

In any case, it isn't the definition of the subject of any tax that is controlling, it is the substance and effect of the tax as it is levied, and taxes laid on wages and salaries are Direct no matter what you call wages and salaries.
  
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #33 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 8:57am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 8:06pm:
Meaning every single person pays the same amount?  Everyone pays the same percentage?  What does "uniform" look like in Jeff-atopia?



An apportioned tax is one where everyone pays the same amount.

A uniform tax is one where every subject of the tax is taxed at the same rate.

However, import tariffs for example, are not uniform if imported motorcycles are taxed at a different rate that imported trucks. The idea behind the rule of uniformity for Indirect taxes is to prevent such taxes from being used as a policy tool to reward some importers and punish others.

The same applies for a tax laid on profits derived from the use of property. Such a tax is not uniform if it taxes profits from renting cars at a different rate than profits derived from renting houses, and certainly no Indirect tax is uniform if it is progressive in it's application. Again, the purpose of the rule of Uniformity is to prevent taxation from being used as a policy tool to reward those whose property produces only small profits and punish those whose property produces large profits.

And of course, both the rule of Apportionment and the rule of Uniformity, taken together, have the purpose of limiting revenue raised by taxes to very small amounts.

Perhaps you'd explain what you think a uniform Indirect tax looks like. Thanks. Please be specific.
  
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #34 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 8:59am
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Sorry.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #35 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 9:02am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 8:06pm:
I see no difference between John Dillinger taking half of a rich bank's money and John Dillinger taking thirty percent of the bank's money and also thirty percent from each customer that happened to be in the bank so it will be "uniform."

You might be able to explain that difference to me.  Please be specific, thank you.



The difference between legally authorized taxation collected in legally limited ways is very different than theft.

Are you slow witted?
  
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #36 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 9:38pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 9:02am:
The difference between legally authorized taxation collected in legally limited ways is very different than theft.

Are you slow witted?


Your only argument is to declare that the other side is slow - to declare that it's obvious that you're right. You couldn't possibly actually argue the case.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #37 - Dec 4th, 2018 at 7:39am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 9:38pm:
Your only argument is to declare that the other side is slow - to declare that it's obvious that you're right. You couldn't possibly actually argue the case.
OK then, it's your ideology that blinds you to the fact that legally authorized taxes collected in legally authorized ways are fundamentally different than criminal theft.

You forgot (again) to tell me your idea of what would make a tax uniform...
  
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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #38 - Dec 4th, 2018 at 1:42pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 4th, 2018 at 7:39am:
OK then, it's your ideology that blinds you to the fact that legally authorized taxes collected in legally authorized ways are fundamentally different than criminal theft.



Taxes are still theft.  One group of people cannot rightfully invalidate the property rights of another group merely by voting to do so or by electing representatives that promise to do so.

Government is an extortion racket that promises protection while threatening with violence anyone who chooses not to pay.
  

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Re: Voter Fraud - Is An 8 Year Sentence Too Harsh?
Reply #39 - Dec 4th, 2018 at 4:24pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 4th, 2018 at 1:42pm:
Taxes are still theft.
Even if they have been legally authorized by the people?

If an import tariff was laid that placed a 3% tax on all imports to the U.S., uniformly, would you still say it was theft?

Please tell me specifically who is being robbed, and if you think the robbery is uniform? Do you think that sort of "theft" by the government is fair and just? Please answer specifically. Thanks.
  
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