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SkyChief
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Libertarian Socialism - Is That Even Possible???
Dec 2nd, 2018 at 11:46am
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Of course not. They are (nearly) opposite ends of the ideological spectrum.

Libertarianism wants Free markets -  keep production control away from government.  Strict limitations on the powers of gov't.  No taxation by coercion.  No wealth redistribution.   Individual liberty.

Socialism wants State/gov't control of production/distribution.  Heavy progressive taxation. Distribution of goods and services overseen and regulated by gov't.   The individual doesn't matter.   The States sees the proletariat as a single organism to be taxed, controlled, and regulated.

But Noam Chompsky claims to be a "libertarian socialist".      How ironic.

In the 1960s, Chomsky proposed a revolutionary idea: We are all born with an innate knowledge of grammar that serves as the basis for all language acquisition. In other words, for humans, language is a basic instinct.

Chompsky demonstrates a lack of understanding for simple terms. 

No circle can have corners.

No married man can be a bachelor.

No libertarian can be socialist.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Libertarian Socialism - Is That Even Possible???
Reply #1 - Dec 2nd, 2018 at 12:32pm
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I'm reminded of an ex-member of this forum who fancied himself a libertarian socialist.

Like Chompsky, he too was highly delusional about what it means to be libertarian.  Funnier than Deepak Chopra even!      Enjoy:

Quote:
... society would collapse completely when free stuff is taken away from 90% or more of the people.


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Must I remind you again that I'm the libertarian and you are one of the fakers? 


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Regulations are good for libertarians too. A rational approach to eliminate useless regulations is beyond the pseudo-libertarian's capacity to think straight.


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I think that maybe the reason why Americans can't accept universal health care is because too many black people would beneift.


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It's called taxation and it benefits everyone. Some way or other a government has to keep poverty at a low enough standard that is befitting the country's wealth. That's not being done in the US and Trump promises to make it even worse.


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Wanting less government is a flawed concept but mostly because it remains meaningless. Libertarians live in some dream world. They don't want to lead the way to a better system of government, they only want to complain about taxes..


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...government guarantees freedom and so without government there is no freedom.


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Some choices libertarians make must not be approved by society. Freedom isn't everything. the current example we are talking about is 'safety' which sometimes trumps freedom.
 

And my All-Time Favorite:
Quote:
If you have 5 boxcars full of food and you distribute it to 6 groups of people, everybody will be fed.

Grin     Grin     Grin     Smiley 
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Libertarian Socialism - Is That Even Possible???
Reply #2 - Dec 2nd, 2018 at 4:11pm
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Yeah, that last one was in response to my telling him that if there are four oranges, and five people, no amount of redistribution will allow everyone to receive one.

His response was basically that resources are unlimited.

Sigh.

People respond to logic differently. Hatred (as your Socrates quote points out), indifference, vitriol...

But as to the topic, it's theoretically possible for libertarians to form a community and voluntarily redistribute everything because that's just what they want to do.

No, this isn't really socialism. It would look and feel like it, though. And more than that, they could form the community like an HOA - a portion of all property is ceded to the HOA, and enough to kick you out of your house if you don't pay your share of welfare.

So you could have a circle with effective corners. They just wouldn't really be corners. All it would depend upon is the legitimacy of the property ownership of the HOA.

Now, I don't really believe that Humans would be so quick to accept the exact same living conditions (especially being born into them without a say) because somebody's land title paperwork has a gold stamp on it.

I think you care more about how you're actually treated, and how much practical freedom you have, and that the "socialist" HOA would force you to see that.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian Socialism - Is That Even Possible???
Reply #3 - Dec 2nd, 2018 at 5:10pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 4:11pm:
Yeah, that last one was in response to my telling him that if there are four oranges, and five people, no amount of redistribution will allow everyone to receive one.

His response was basically that resources are unlimited.

Huh. Most libertarians are convinced that free markets under a uniform rule of law will result in the best use and most conservation of resources, and their belief is based on massive amounts of empirical evidence.

The best way to really misuse and waste resources of all kinds, including human resources, is to become Venezuela or China or Russia.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Libertarian Socialism - Is That Even Possible???
Reply #4 - Dec 2nd, 2018 at 7:19pm
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SkyChief wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 11:46am:
Of course not. They are (nearly) opposite ends of the ideological spectrum.

Libertarianism wants Free markets -  keep production control away from government.  Strict limitations on the powers of gov't.  No taxation by coercion.  No wealth redistribution.   Individual liberty.

Socialism wants State/gov't control of production/distribution.  Heavy progressive taxation. Distribution of goods and services overseen and regulated by gov't.   The individual doesn't matter.   The States sees the proletariat as a single organism to be taxed, controlled, and regulated.

But Noam Chompsky claims to be a "libertarian socialist".      How ironic.

In the 1960s, Chomsky proposed a revolutionary idea: We are all born with an innate knowledge of grammar that serves as the basis for all language acquisition. In other words, for humans, language is a basic instinct.

Chompsky demonstrates a lack of understanding for simple terms. 

No circle can have corners.

No married man can be a bachelor.

No libertarian can be socialist.


Very true, very true.  That taxation is indeed theft, and not justifiable theft, is one of the cornerstones of libertarian thought.  If we don't have property rights, we have literally no human rights.  Our "rights" are the same as those afforded animals by socialists.  Socialists are outspoken in defense of animals' "rights" to be free from cruelty and that is the only "right" that the afford humans.  Many of them don't afford even that to unborn humans or to tax refusers.

Chomsky, as a mind scientist, had some ideas about linguistic psychology that were worth exploring.  As often happens, those ideas have been thoroughly debunked, but it was a good intellectual exercise, similar to the way talk about the "ether" was a good intellectual exercise for the physical sciences. 

His political ideas are absurd.  Sadly, because his political views were so mainstream, the orthodoxy positioned him as being a far larger intellect than he actually was.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian Socialism - Is That Even Possible???
Reply #5 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 8:35am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 7:19pm:
Very true, very true.  That taxation is indeed theft, and not justifiable theft, is one of the cornerstones of libertarian thought.  If we don't have property rights, we have literally no human rights.
If you don't have the means to protect your property, having property rights is meaningless. I'm not talking about just being able to individually protect your property from thieves, which many people can't do, but also protecting it from gangs of thieves and from appropriation by governments both foreign and domestic.

I know you think that even legitimate legally authorized and strictly limited taxation is theft, but classical liberals see it as a necessary evil that can be used to fund police and courts and a military that can protect your property rights.

Private security forces are fine if you can afford them and also if they are required to operate within a framework of law that can prevent private security forces from becoming gangs of thieves. Who will prevent your private security force from becoming a gang of thieves?

If libertarians want to hold onto the idea that all taxation is theft, they will continue to be a minor group of delusional anarchists... But I think you are wrong about taxation=theft being a "cornerstone of libertarian thought". Only the anarchist fringe believes that to be true.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Libertarian Socialism - Is That Even Possible???
Reply #6 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 10:53am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 8:35am:
If you don't have the means to protect your property, having property rights is meaningless. I'm not talking about just being able to individually protect your property from thieves, which many people can't do, but also protecting it from gangs of thieves and from appropriation by governments both foreign and domestic.

I know you think that even legitimate legally authorized and strictly limited taxation is theft, but classical liberals see it as a necessary evil that can be used to fund police and courts and a military that can protect your property rights.

Private security forces are fine if you can afford them and also if they are required to operate within a framework of law that can prevent private security forces from becoming gangs of thieves. Who will prevent your private security force from becoming a gang of thieves?




Your answer is, "Only allowing government to be a gang of thieves can stop private security forces from being gangs of thieves."

Of course in America (and everywhere else as far as I know), we have both government as a thieving gang and also plenty of non-government thieving gangs.  At least my way would eliminate one of those.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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SkyChief
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Re: Libertarian Socialism - Is That Even Possible???
Reply #7 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 12:07pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 8:35am:
If libertarians want to hold onto the idea that all taxation is theft, they will continue to be a minor group of delusional anarchists...

Libertarians understand that that all taxation by coercion is theft. 

Income Tax is theft because it's understood that a person who doesn't pay will be imprisoned or fined.

The Gasoline Tax is NOT theft because it can be dodged without fear of punishment.  A person can walk or take the bus.  Or drive a Tesla. Or bicycle.

Income Tax can't be dodged.  If a man wants to pay the mortgage and feed/clothe his family, he must work for a salary or wages.    When the gov't demands (a portion of) his wages, that's theft.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian Socialism - Is That Even Possible???
Reply #8 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 4:33pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 10:53am:
Your answer is, "Only allowing government to be a gang of thieves can stop private security forces from being gangs of thieves."


Quite the opposite as I keep saying. Legal limited taxation can prevent your private security forces from becoming thieves by establishing a system of laws and law enforcement that can control them if they decide to become a gang of thieves. Your local and state police are your first lines of defense.
  
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