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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Things We Had The Freedom To Do Without Gov't Intrusion (Read 308 times)
Snarky Sack
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Re: Things We Had The Freedom To Do Without Gov't Intrusion
Reply #10 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 12:42pm
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SkyChief wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 11:36am:
My list is complete?   Can no one think of any more American liberties that have been stripped by gov't?
.


We basically have no liberties at all.  The complete loss of liberties is the result of the shift in attitude towards government.  Having internalized the idea that we only can do what the government “allows” us to, we can no longer think of ourselves as free adults.

It’s like when Texas and other states pass laws “allowing”.  People to bear arms instead of simply repealing the existing laws that forbid bearing arms.

I know it seems like a silly example but when the idea of “robot brothels” (really just sex doll rental houses) was floated, the automatic reaction was for people to wonder ‘will they be allowed to do that?’  That kind of business could reduce the number of women forced into prostitution but the religious right and the man-hating left immediately came up with outlandish reasons to ban it.
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: Things We Had The Freedom To Do Without Gov't Intrusion
Reply #11 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 4:41pm
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SkyChief wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 11:36am:
My list is complete?   Can no one think of any more American liberties that have been stripped by gov't?

It would be easier to just list what you can still do without asking permission or getting fined or jailed. There are so many often conflicting regulations that nobody really knows of, that the list of things known with certainty to be permissible is probably very short.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Things We Had The Freedom To Do Without Gov't Intrusion
Reply #12 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 9:32pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 7:41am:
What it is is a step towards private property rights in fisheries, but yes, it will require the help of governments to protect and enforce those rights.


You're describing it in a very generous way. You're solving the problem of air being a commons by giving out property rights to air, to a few individuals, and letting them benefit from all uses of it.

Having TunaCo and SquishyFish Inc suddenly own the ocean is not a libertarian solution by a long shot, and worse, it's a sidestep of the issue that the ocean is not some pasture that can be divvied up and grazed - it is a natural commons.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Things We Had The Freedom To Do Without Gov't Intrusion
Reply #13 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 8:41am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 9:32pm:
You're describing it in a very generous way. You're solving the problem of air being a commons by giving out property rights to air, to a few individuals, and letting them benefit from all uses of it.
Prior to the Progressive Era, our common law allowed people to bring suit for damages when someone polluted the air above their property or the water running past or through it.

Selling fishery rights creates an incentive to maintain the fishery in exactly the same way that farmers are motivated to conserve the land they farm. When land is a commons, no one has any motivation to conserve it. When fisheries are a commons, no one has any incentive to conserve them.

Several African countries recognized property rights in the elephants that lived on people's land. The result was greatly diminished poaching and an increase in the number of elephants.

If you want to conserve something, make it private property.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Things We Had The Freedom To Do Without Gov't Intrusion
Reply #14 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 8:35pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 8:41am:
Prior to the Progressive Era, our common law allowed people to bring suit for damages when someone polluted the air above their property or the water running past or through it.


This is not the fish issue and you know so. This is not polluting the fisheries; this is exploiting the fisheries.

Jeff wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 8:41am:
Selling fishery rights


...Is not libertarian unless you think someone owns them now, who has the right to sell them.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Things We Had The Freedom To Do Without Gov't Intrusion
Reply #15 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 8:32am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
This is not the fish issue and you know so. This is not polluting the fisheries; this is exploiting the fisheries.


Commons are exploited, private property is protected by it's owners and hopefully by governments.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Things We Had The Freedom To Do Without Gov't Intrusion
Reply #16 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 8:43am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
...Is not libertarian unless you think someone owns them now, who has the right to sell them.
It's already happening lizard-

https://www.perc.org/2015/11/19/fishing-with-property-rights/

Governments now claim the right to regulate fishing in waters in and around their countries, and therefore they can sell or auction off fishing rights.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Things We Had The Freedom To Do Without Gov't Intrusion
Reply #17 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 10:53am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 7th, 2018 at 8:32am:
Commons are exploited, private property is protected by it's owners and hopefully by governments.


Correct, and it's not a solve to pretend commons are property when they're not.

Unless you can think of a libertarian reason why Fisherman Jones has the right to go and catch fish and Fisherman Jim does not.

It would solve the problem of air pollution to give one person all the property rights to all the air, too. It's not a libertarian solution because air is a commons. Air is not property.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Things We Had The Freedom To Do Without Gov't Intrusion
Reply #18 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 11:29am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 7th, 2018 at 10:53am:
It would solve the problem of air pollution to give one person all the property rights to all the air, too. It's not a libertarian solution because air is a commons. Air is not property.

The ocean is a commons, too.  How can the ocean be property?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Things We Had The Freedom To Do Without Gov't Intrusion
Reply #19 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 4:30pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 7th, 2018 at 10:53am:
Correct, and it's not a solve to pretend commons are property when they're not.

Exactly. It's foolish to imagine that property can be owned in common, and it has very bad effects when governments enforce such "common property" rights.

What is said to be owned by everyone is in fact claimed by governments, and they claim to have the right to decide how such common property can be used.

What is claimed to be impossible for anyone to own, like air or water or fish in the sea, is also effectively claimed by governments, and they also claim the right to tell everyone how such "impossible to own property" may or may not be used.
  
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