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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Trump: Fund The Wall Or I Will Shut Gov't Down (Read 3580 times)
The Opposition
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Re: Trump: Fund The Wall Or I Will Shut Gov't Down
Reply #10 - Dec 13th, 2018 at 10:09pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 4:45pm:
What about it lizard? Is the NAP violated if we don't accede to their demands?


That's a loaded question. Yes, you must let them into the US if they like, as long as they're coming onto someone's private property who wants them there.

That they demand money is completely irrelevant to the central issue.

When you want Ahmed in your house (citizen or not), and I say no, yes that's aggression dipshit. You're literally making fun of me for upholding your principles, which just shows you have none at all.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Trump: Fund The Wall Or I Will Shut Gov't Down
Reply #11 - Dec 14th, 2018 at 7:12am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 10:09pm:
That's a loaded question. Yes, you must let them into the US if they like, as long as they're coming onto someone's private property who wants them there.

That they demand money is completely irrelevant to the central issue.

When you want Ahmed in your house (citizen or not), and I say no, yes that's aggression dipshit. You're literally making fun of me for upholding your principles, which just shows you have none at all.
You argue for open borders as a moral principle.

What if the person who wants Ahmed "on his property" is an Aryan Nation white supremacist dedicated to destroying the government and re-enslaving black people?

Do you imagine Ahmed will stay in on the property he was invited on to?

Ahmed was after all invited here because of his bomb making expertise, so he could help bomb federal buildings for the Aryan Nation... That's the job he was hired to do, and he'll have to go into the federal buildings to set his bombs...

Do you not think that there might be wider interests involved than just those of Ahmed and the Aryan Nation follower who hired him?

BTW, their demand for money is a different issue, but still important. Is it aggression if we refuse to grant their demand for money?

  
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The Opposition
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Re: Trump: Fund The Wall Or I Will Shut Gov't Down
Reply #12 - Dec 14th, 2018 at 9:44pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 14th, 2018 at 7:12am:
You argue for open borders as a moral principle.

What if the person who wants Ahmed "on his property" is an Aryan Nation white supremacist dedicated to destroying the government and re-enslaving black people?

Do you imagine Ahmed will stay in on the property he was invited on to?

Ahmed was after all invited here because of his bomb making expertise, so he could help bomb federal buildings for the Aryan Nation... That's the job he was hired to do, and he'll have to go into the federal buildings to set his bombs...

Do you not think that there might be wider interests involved than just those of Ahmed and the Aryan Nation follower who hired him?


Of course, but interests do not constitute aggression. When they blow something up, punish them then.

Jeff wrote on Dec 14th, 2018 at 7:12am:
BTW, their demand for money is a different issue, but still important. Is it aggression if we refuse to grant their demand for money?


No, provided we let them into the country.

It's also not aggression for them to accept the money for staying out, then come in anyway. It might be a tort, at best. This makes the money issue irrelevant, because even if they take the money, they still have the right to cross fictitious "borders".
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Trump: Fund The Wall Or I Will Shut Gov't Down
Reply #13 - Dec 15th, 2018 at 3:43am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 14th, 2018 at 9:44pm:
Jeff wrote on Dec 14th, 2018 at 7:12am:
Is it aggression if we refuse to grant their demand for money?



No, provided we let them into the country.

What if they are refused the money AND refused entry to the US?

Is that aggression?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Trump: Fund The Wall Or I Will Shut Gov't Down
Reply #14 - Dec 15th, 2018 at 7:58am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 14th, 2018 at 9:44pm:
When they blow something up, punish them then.


How about if Ahmed is known to have blown things up on behalf of neo-Nazis in Europe?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Trump: Fund The Wall Or I Will Shut Gov't Down
Reply #15 - Dec 15th, 2018 at 8:01am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 14th, 2018 at 9:44pm:
No, provided we let them into the country.

It's also not aggression for them to accept the money for staying out, then come in anyway. It might be a tort, at best. This makes the money issue irrelevant, because even if they take the money, they still have the right to cross fictitious "borders".
As usual, you have your own strange notion of what constitutes aggression.

National/state/local borders are not "fictitious".
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Trump: Fund The Wall Or I Will Shut Gov't Down
Reply #16 - Dec 15th, 2018 at 11:41am
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SkyChief wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 3:43am:
What if they are refused the money AND refused entry to the US?

Is that aggression?


Yes. But the issue of the money makes the whole thing stupid.

They can take the money, and they still have the right to come in, so they still can.

If they agree not to come in for the money, then take the money, then come in anyway, that's a tort, not aggression. You could sue them, but they probably already spent the money.

Meaning don't give them the money, because there's no moral means to enforce an agreement like that.

Reference:
https://mises.org/library/property-rights-and-theory-contracts

Jeff wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 7:58am:
How about if Ahmed is known to have blown things up on behalf of neo-Nazis in Europe?


The Libertarian Party removed the bit about stopping dangerous foreign nationals who are a threat to national security.

If he aggressed before and wasn't punished, that just means there was no market demand to punish him.

You're changing the issue significantly because there is significant market demand to stop neo-Nazi and white nationalist aggression.

The market does not produce equivalent demand to stop radical Islamic terrorism. If anything, there's market demand to increase this sort of aggression. If you don't like that, get rich like the hero George Soros and create that demand yourself. Then you'll be a hero too.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Trump: Fund The Wall Or I Will Shut Gov't Down
Reply #17 - Dec 15th, 2018 at 12:08pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 11:41am:
SkyChief wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 3:43am:
What if they are refused the money AND refused entry to the US?

Is that aggression?


Yes. But the issue of the money makes the whole thing stupid.

If I install locks on my doors to keep out trespassers, is that aggression?

If I put up a 12-foot high fence around my yard to keep out trespassers, is that aggression?


The Opposition wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 11:41am:
They can take the money, and they still have the right to come in, so they still can.

The US is a sovereign country.  Think of it as a really BIG yard.

Which people have the right to trespass in your yard? 

Which people have a right to enter your home uninvited?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Trump: Fund The Wall Or I Will Shut Gov't Down
Reply #18 - Dec 15th, 2018 at 5:00pm
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SkyChief wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 12:08pm:
If I install locks on my doors to keep out trespassers, is that aggression?


No.

SkyChief wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 12:08pm:
If I put up a 12-foot high fence around my yard to keep out trespassers, is that aggression?


No.

SkyChief wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 12:08pm:
Which people have the right to trespass in your yard? 


None.

SkyChief wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 12:08pm:
Which people have a right to enter your home uninvited?


None.

SkyChief wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 12:08pm:
The US is a sovereign country.  Think of it as a really BIG yard.


How many legs does a sheep have if you call the tail a leg?
Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg.

- Abraham Lincoln
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Trump: Fund The Wall Or I Will Shut Gov't Down
Reply #19 - Dec 16th, 2018 at 6:51am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 11:41am:
The Libertarian Party removed the bit about stopping dangerous foreign nationals who are a threat to national security.

If he aggressed before and wasn't punished, that just means there was no market demand to punish him.

Ha ha.
  
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