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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Right and Wrong and Democrats (Read 1721 times)
The Opposition
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Right and Wrong and Democrats
Dec 11th, 2018 at 9:07pm
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When I hear about the latest thing the liberal left is doing, I usually cringe at their tactics. They don't care if Trump has done anything "wrong" or not - he's a political adversary, and hey, whatever it takes to win.

(I put wrong in quotes meaning wrong, according to the laws. Obviously Trump is an aggressor.)

It occurs to me that only the liberal Left actually believes their ways are right.

Others, conservatives for example, are willing to let the people decide what policies there ought to be. They don't generally cry for recounts or, as is the case of the liberal Left in Europe, demand a second vote to confirm the validity of the first vote (Brexit).

The Left is never willing to lose gracefully, because they're not willing to lose. Anything, to win.

At first glance this feels rather childish, doesn't it?

...Except when you realise the policies of the world are not some game. The Left, and everyone else, are fighting for the rules the world will live by.

I imagine you'd be just as militant if someone was trying to legalise murder or criminalise alcohol.

The Left feels the same. It's understandable that they rig elections, filibuster anything they don't like, or call for more referendums. They don't want the people to decide, because the people are wrong. Maybe you'd call for extra referendums too, or filibuster the heck out of a bill to decriminalise murder. At that point, it would be anything to win, right? Because the other side is objectively wrong?

Stevea made a post a long time ago saying that he could understand the actions of the people bombing planned parenthood because they think it's murder, and this is what you probably ought to to, to defend lives against murder.

The Left, or at least whoever is giving the useful idiots their orders, actually believes its moral sentiments are correct. They don't have this wishy-washy losing gracefully thing.

What I'm surprised about is that there aren't more militant libertarians who feel the same. You believe in the NAP, don't you?

Why the Hell would you be okay with people voting? They'll vote against the NAP, nine times out of ten.

I've come to wonder if I actually don't agree with Skychief, and his plan to stop people who don't know the first thing about the government or what it's there for, from voting.

Except that I would want to take it further. Deliberately corrupt the system. Record how people vote. If they vote for aggression, give them tougher questions. If they still somehow pass, just let them think they voted, but don't count it.

"Anything to win" actually should be your mantra, if you actually believe morality is on your side.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #1 - Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:51am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 9:07pm:
What I'm surprised about is that there aren't more militant libertarians who feel the same. You believe in the NAP, don't you?

Why the Hell would you be okay with people voting? They'll vote against the NAP, nine times out of ten.
I like my own idea of allowing people who pay taxes on money they earned or on incomes derived from the use of their property to vote, and no one else.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #2 - Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:53am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 9:07pm:
"Anything to win" actually should be your mantra, if you actually believe morality is on your side.
Morality requires that the means used to reach a moral end also be moral.

Your barbaric idea that the ends justify the means is a justification of evil used by tyrants.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #3 - Dec 12th, 2018 at 8:29am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:51am:
I like my own idea of allowing people who pay taxes on money they earned or on incomes derived from the use of their property to vote, and no one else.


I like that idea also.  It’s not as good as just letting earners keep their money, but it’s better than letting “the community” vote on how the stolen money will be spent


You do realize that your idea would doom welfare programs like social security and public schools, correct?


  

Snarky no more!
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The Opposition
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #4 - Dec 12th, 2018 at 11:03am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:53am:
Morality requires that the means used to reach a moral end also be moral.

Your barbaric idea that the ends justify the means is a justification of evil used by tyrants.


The idea of self-defence disproves this assertion. Shooting someone is immoral, precisely until it becomes a means to do what's moral: Defend against an aggressor.

Means, like shooting a man, that were once immoral can become moral in the service of morality.

You really ought to address the point about a bill to legalise murder. You'd fight that tooth-and-nail, right? Democrat-style? Be unwilling to lose? Use any tactic available?

Jeff wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:51am:
I like my own idea of allowing people who pay taxes on money they earned or on incomes derived from the use of their property to vote, and no one else.


Anyone (well, any nonparasite anyway) would like that, because it's fair.

The question is, is it right?

Does the presence of a government and its claim to legitimate governance over a person owe that person a say in how he or she is governed?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #5 - Dec 12th, 2018 at 4:39pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 8:29am:
You do realize that your idea would doom welfare programs like social security and public schools, correct?


You know their is a difference between redistribution of wealth and taxation to support community schools don't you?

Calling both of these very different things "welfare" amounts to lying.

I'm sure you also know that social "security" is different from either funding local schools or welfare.

That said, yes, many things would change if only productive people were allowed to vote.

Maybe you also know that many people collecting Social Security also pay federal taxes on their incomes? That means they would still get to vote, right?

Edit: So would anyone else who paid taxes, citizen or not, if they pay taxes they get to vote. (Not just sales and excise taxes either. No weaseling around! Productive people.)
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #6 - Dec 12th, 2018 at 11:40pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 4:39pm:
You know their is a difference between redistribution of wealth and taxation to support community schools don't you?

Calling both of these very different things "welfare" amounts to lying.


I invited you to have a civil discussion about what makes them different. Your only argument is that everyone who opposes you is too stupid to understand that the way you see things is obviously correct.

You've never actually offended me before, but congratulations - you have now. As someone with a genuinely tremendous IQ, I have found that when you have someone who doesn't understand something, if they truly want to, and if you're truly willing, you can, all else failing (which it rarely does in this situation) simplify a little and make sure they understand the basics.

And here I am asking you to explain what makes these things so obviously different, willing to accept any consistent explanation, and you refuse to even try.

I don't $#%&ing pick everything apart because I disagree with it. I pick everything apart because I need to, in order to understand it. I understand how confrontational I am about it, but if it helps you, when I point out a contradiction, please read, "This seems like a contradiction to me; I don't understand how these principles work in this situation. Please explain."

And still, no one has addressed the fundamental question posed in this thread: Why would you be okay with people voting, if they can vote for what's objectively wrong?

If you think aggression is wrong, and you understand that nine times out of ten, people will vote for aggression, it seems to me you should be completely against the whole affair on principle.

If not, please answer my question: Wouldn't you use dirty tactics to oppose a bill to legalise murder? Wouldn't you pull out all the stops, just like the liberal Left does? Wouldn't your mantra shift to anything to win, then, and against something so obviously evil?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #7 - Dec 13th, 2018 at 1:53am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 11:40pm:
And still, no one has addressed the fundamental question posed in this thread: Why would you be okay with people voting, if they can vote for what's objectively wrong?

People should be allowed to vote for wrong things so long as they do so being informed.

Most informed people will vote for good things, and reject the bad.

That's the premise for the Voter Proficiency Exam.  It doesn't guarantee that all voters will vote for the good thing.... only that the majority will.

Big improvement over the status quo, no?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #8 - Dec 13th, 2018 at 8:32am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 11:40pm:
I invited you to have a civil discussion about what makes them different.
Fine, you start. Tell me why a welfare check is the same as being offered a chance to go to school.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #9 - Dec 13th, 2018 at 8:41am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 11:40pm:
And still, no one has addressed the fundamental question posed in this thread: Why would you be okay with people voting, if they can vote for what's objectively wrong?

I don't support democratic voting by the people to make laws, because that does allow people to vote for things that might be "objectively wrong", but I do support allowing only productive people to vote for representatives that have been granted limited powers to make laws within a framework of the constitutional law that constrains their lawmaking to specific enumerated areas, and I think it's a good idea to repeal the 17th Amendment and go back to having productive people vote for state representatives who use democratic processes to appoint U.S. Senators that they have the power to recall.
  
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