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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Right and Wrong and Democrats (Read 963 times)
Little Big Man
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #10 - Dec 13th, 2018 at 8:45am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 4:39pm:
You know their is a difference between redistribution of wealth and taxation to support community schools don't you?

Calling both of these very different things "welfare" amounts to lying.

I'm sure you also know that social "security" is different from either funding local schools or welfare.


Yes, any given program is different from every other program because no two things can logically be exactly the same.   That doesn't change the fact that public school, AFDC, government housing projects, corporate subsidies and social security are all give-aways funded by theft. That's welfare

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That said, yes, many things would change if only productive people were allowed to vote.

Maybe you also know that many people collecting Social Security also pay federal taxes on their incomes? [quote]

Yes, almost everyone who pays taxes also gets some wealth transfer from government, be it in the form of "free" roads, "low-cost" sewage or police "protection."  That's why the scheme is so easy for the second raters of government to live off the earnings of their betters.  Everyone would like to pay less taxes but they are also afraid of losing what little they get back from government. 
[quote]
That means they would still get to vote, right?


Yes, and as the population grows older, and the Ponzi scheme gets closer to collapsing, the younger workers will be forced to lose larger and larger cuts of their paychecks so social security dolees can sit and wait for the mailman.  More people under thirty believe that they might someday be abducted by a UFO than believe they might someday get social security payments.  So those workers would be unlikely to vote for your continued leisure lifestyle.

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Edit: So would anyone else who paid taxes, citizen or not, if they pay taxes they get to vote. (Not just sales and excise taxes either. No weaseling around! Productive people.)


So if a state government is run by sales taxes, there would be taxation without representation?


  

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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #11 - Dec 13th, 2018 at 9:09am
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 8:45am:
Yes, any given program is different from every other program because no two things can logically be exactly the same.   That doesn't change the fact that public school, AFDC, government housing projects, corporate subsidies and social security are all give-aways funded by theft. That's welfare



I see the difference in general as being that public schooling benefits the community as a whole while AFDC benefits individuals while causing harm to the community as a whole.

Social Security, although it is a lie that individual "contributions" were invested in government securities for the future benefit of the individual who made the "contributions", and although it has been expanded to benefit individuals who never made "contributions", is still at least loosely based on the idea that recipients are getting back their original "investment" plus interest. That is quite different than corporate welfare or AFDC.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #12 - Dec 13th, 2018 at 9:18am
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 8:45am:
Yes, and as the population grows older, and the Ponzi scheme gets closer to collapsing, the younger workers will be forced to lose larger and larger cuts of their paychecks so social security dolees can sit and wait for the mailman.  More people under thirty believe that they might someday be abducted by a UFO than believe they might someday get social security payments.  So those workers would be unlikely to vote for your continued leisure lifestyle.





I really don't like the way you inserted your statement into the middle of what I said.

Anyway, had the government actually invested my F.I.C.A. "contributions" into treasury bonds in my name, I would have retired as a millionaire and could have drawn on my "investment" as I choose.  Not that that justifies them forcing me to buy treasury bonds with money they took from me...

But you are correct, the fact that the government relies on future taxes to repay all of the debts it incurs make it certain that that they will soon be unable to repay any of their debts, including the fictional debt they owe to Social Security recipients.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #13 - Dec 13th, 2018 at 9:20am
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 8:45am:
So if a state government is run by sales taxes, there would be taxation without representation?
My recommendation for states that don't levy "income" taxes would be to only allow people who paid federal "income" taxes to vote in state elections.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #14 - Dec 13th, 2018 at 9:31am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 9:09am:
I see the difference in general as being that public schooling benefits the community as a whole while AFDC benefits individuals while causing harm to the community as a whole.


I would argue that AFDC actually harms the individuals, perhaps even more so than the community as a whole, but I don't think you could grasp my reasoning for saying that, so I won't go into it.

As far as it benefiting the community to take from the earners to make sure that the children of non-earners get "free" public school and that the wealth of education is distributed equally, I would like you to explain how that benefits the community. 

Take a small town of one thousand households and about a thousand school aged children.  Say ten percent of the families are wealthy, ten percent of them are impoverished, ten percent are barely making ends meet on low-wage jobs and seventy percent are solid middle class.

The wealth ten percent can afford the best of private schools even after being taxed for public schools.  The seventy percent could afford to pay for very good private schools unless they are taxed to pay for mediocre to poor public schools which would then become the only education option for them.  The ten percent impoverished have no way to send their kids to school other than "free" school and the ten percent get-byers could only afford very low-cost "no frills" educations for their children (which would likely still be higher quality than public schools) and only if they did not have to pay for public schools.

How does the community benefit from forcing the children of the seventy percent middle class and the ten percent scraping by to attend inferior schools in order that the ten percent impoverished can go to school for free? 

  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #15 - Dec 13th, 2018 at 10:20am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 9:18am:
I really don't like the way you inserted your statement into the middle of what I said.


I'm not sure what you mean by that.  I sometimes err in posting quotes because I break them down to deconstruct them when they are illogical.  If I made a mistake, I apologize.

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Anyway, had the government actually invested my F.I.C.A. "contributions" into treasury bonds in my name, I would have retired as a millionaire and could have drawn on my "investment" as I choose.  Not that that justifies them forcing me to buy treasury bonds with money they took from me...

But you are correct, the fact that the government relies on future taxes to repay all of the debts it incurs make it certain that that they will soon be unable to repay any of their debts, including the fictional debt they owe to Social Security recipients.


Right, but I have to think that either they knew it all along, or the didn't even consider it because they were following the Keynesian principle that, "in the long run, we're all dead."  They were right as far as that goes.  It's the long run and they are all dead.   It is we, their grandchildren, who are not dead and are facing the consequences.  It is we who must end it if don't want our grandchildren to have it even worse.

  

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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #16 - Dec 13th, 2018 at 1:42pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 9:31am:
I would argue that AFDC actually harms the individuals, perhaps even more so than the community as a whole...
I agree.
  
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #17 - Dec 13th, 2018 at 1:51pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 9:31am:
As far as it benefiting the community to take from the earners to make sure that the children of non-earners get "free" public school and that the wealth of education is distributed equally, I would like you to explain how that benefits the community. 
It benefits the community because there are fewer uneducated people in the community, and it keeps kids off the streets and out of gangs to some extent.

I agree it may not be the ideal way to educate children, so I advocate for vouchers so that public schools will be forced to improve or disappear. I also believe that better public schools existed (and could exist again) if control of schools and the funding for schools was local.

Ideally there would be very few people so poor that the couldn't afford to send their children to private schools, and the fact that there are so many who can't is directly related to government intervention in the economy and taxes that are far too high.

Imagining private schools being profitable in our "progressive" inner cities is simply impossible for me to do, and I think those children should have an opportunity to get a good basic education. Vouchers would be a good first step. Probably dismantling the welfare state is the really necessary first step.
  
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #18 - Dec 13th, 2018 at 2:07pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 10:20am:
Right, but I have to think that either they knew it all along, or the didn't even consider it because they were following the Keynesian principle that, "in the long run, we're all dead."  They were right as far as that goes.  It's the long run and they are all dead.   It is we, their grandchildren, who are not dead and are facing the consequences.  It is we who must end it if don't want our grandchildren to have it even worse.

I'm cynical enough to believe that some of the people who created Social Security saw it as a way to capture a large bloc of votes by bribing retired people with a promise of a secure retirement, but I also believe that some who voted for the original plan to pay only destitute widows and orphans actually believed it would stop there... Not that there is any Constitutional authorization for the sort of wealth transfer that S.S. actually is... Except for SCOTUS interpretation of the general welfare clause as a grant of general power.

When the plan was first created, most people didn't live to reach retirement age, and most of those who did usually didn't live too long after, so the problem of far too much going out and not enough coming in didn't originally exist.

It does now and has for at least a generation, but Congress won't willingly risk losing votes by changing or ending it.

I agree with you that it needs to be stopped.

Chile did a pretty good job of altering their program, and it would be a good first step for the U.S.

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/chiles-social-security-lesson-us

I don't know if you can convince Millennials to vote for people who advocate altering or ending Social Security or not. I expect it will remain in place until the U.S. falls to total economic collapse. Cry
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #19 - Dec 13th, 2018 at 4:11pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 1:51pm:
It benefits the community because there are fewer uneducated people in the community,


I like having uneducated people  in my community.  They are the ones I hire to mow my lawn and clean my pool.

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and it keeps kids off the streets and out of gangs to some extent.


But you advocate that kids who don't want to learn be booted out in ninth grade if I remember it right without checking back.  Aren't those the exact ones who will join gangs?

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I agree it may not be the ideal way to educate children, so I advocate for vouchers so that public schools will be forced to improve or disappear.


I still don't see how you think that is more efficient than simply letting parents keep their money in the first place.  The public schools could still stay open by charging (voluntary) tuition.  If the schools are as good as you think they are, the transition could actually be pretty seamless.  Most parents would prefer their kids keep going to the same school if it was a good one.  The bad ones would disappear almost immediately.  That's a good thing, isn't it?

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I also believe that better public schools existed (and could exist again) if control of schools and the funding for schools was local.

Ideally there would be very few people so poor that the couldn't afford to send their children to private schools, and the fact that there are so many who can't is directly related to government intervention in the economy and taxes that are far too high.

Imagining private schools being profitable in our "progressive" inner cities is simply impossible for me to do, and I think those children should have an opportunity to get a good basic education. Vouchers would be a good first step. Probably dismantling the welfare state is the really necessary first step.


That use of passive voice in the phrase I bolded is the favorite legal language of socialists.  Why not say forthrightly, "I think money should be taken from earners so that education can be transferred from their children to the children of non-earners?"  That's what you are advocating.

I think those children should have the opportunity for a trip to Disneyland.  I think the community would benefit because the kids would not be so mad at the world over other kids being able to so they might not join gangs or steal our lawnmowers and whatnot.  Are you on board with that?


  

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