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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Right and Wrong and Democrats (Read 1290 times)
The Opposition
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #60 - Dec 17th, 2018 at 9:46pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 12:16pm:
If "racist" now just means, "a white person who disagrees with me," we need a new word that means a person who judges people by race. 


Bias. The progressives admit that black people can be biased, just not racist.

Little Big Man wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 12:16pm:
They want to change the denotative meaning while keeping the connotation that should be applied to the real meaning.


They can only do this if people are fundamentally illogical. They change the dictionary? Fine. I'm willing to count up from three. Math is still math.

What they've done as they've done this, however, is to change the culture as well. Right and wrong actually follow from culture, just as murder wouldn't be wrong if literally everyone thought it was okay.

I really don't give a shit what the rules are as long as they're consistent. Believe it or not, Leftism in its final form is pretty consistent, even though it's Hella biased.

Libertarians are not consistent. The moment anyone violates the NAP, it falls apart and there's absolutely no consensus. Rothbard said you can't shoot someone for stealing a stick of gum. To be consistent with that, you can't shoot someone for stealing anything, even your organs, since it's very well possible that stick of gum is between you and death, and Rothbard makes no exception for that.

SkyChief wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 11:21am:
Then we need a new word to describe someone who believes that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, and therefore should be granted special consideration, based on these characteristics or abilities.


Uhm... that would just be everyone. As a Vulcan, I have a longer lifespan. This is objective. I do want special consideration. I don't want to be chucked in a grave when I hit a hundred and fifty because, "Well, he must be dead by now."

I also don't think my coffin should be the same size as a pygmy's, or that you don't need sunscreen when you go to the beach. I don't think all females should wear the same shade of makeup.

The use of the word all in the definition is very sly. No one believes there aren't albino black people or that Vulcans can't die early. If we hold to the all, rather than just a vast majority of, then the answer is nobody. Even the worst racists understand there are exceptions.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #61 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:15am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 16th, 2018 at 10:16pm:
The key here is that Jeff is the one acknowledging the entitlement (provided the community wishes to create it, and while disputing the use of the word entitlement) and I'm the one just going from there.

I'm using his assumptions. All I add is logic.

1. If the objective is to have the poor get more money, and not have to mow lawns, giving them the money without taking the job away from the person who deserves it simply causes less harm. It's also objectively less theft.
2. Forcing people to pay for education is wasteful, both because it takes education out of the realm of the free market and because the children forced into classrooms aren't interested in uptaking the education.

I've never said children should be forced into schools, although I believe parents have the right to force their children to go to school.

An opportunity for every child to get a basic education is just a good idea, although getting a basic education is not a good predictor of future economic success. I don't think IQ is either. Very intelligent individuals can be abysmal failures economically, and not very smart people can get very rich.

I think my voucher plan, where parents get education vouchers for the full amount that is being spent on their children in government schools is a good first step toward making education entirely free market, but I also think there are and will be communities that decide to tax their own community members in order to create and fund public schools and as I've said, I see no way short of tyranny by the federal government to prevent people from creating local governments, giving them the power to tax and having them spend the raised revenue on whatever they decide to spend it on. All of this is contingent on the local governments not being tyrannies themselves.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #62 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:16am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 9:46pm:
Bias. The progressives admit that black people can be biased, just not racist.


Do the progressives call themselves liberal?
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #63 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 9:46am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:15am:
I've never said children should be forced into schools, although I believe parents have the right to force their children to go to school.

An opportunity for every child to get a basic education is just a good idea, although getting a basic education is not a good predictor of future economic success. I don't think IQ is either. Very intelligent individuals can be abysmal failures economically, and not very smart people can get very rich.


The same parents who would not pay for their child's education will not force them to go to school.  Then you have the same problem of a community having uneducated people and children joining gangs. 

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I think my voucher plan, where parents get education vouchers for the full amount that is being spent on their children in government schools is a good first step toward making education entirely free market, but I also think there are and will be communities that decide to tax their own community members in order to create and fund public schools


I can understand that you are not educated enough to understand that education is a form of wealth that is redistributed through public school.  But even you have to know that vouchers are the purest of wealth transfer.  Taking money from parents who could and would pay for their children's schooling and giving it directly to parents who can't or won't pay for theirs is no different than taking the money and giving it in cash with a legal requirement that the cash be spent on education.

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and as I've said, I see no way short of tyranny by the federal government to prevent people from creating local governments, giving them the power to tax and having them spend the raised revenue on whatever they decide to spend it on. All of this is contingent on the local governments not being tyrannies themselves.


Meaning what?  That it would be tyranny for a community to "decide to tax itself" for midnight basketball but perfectly fine for public schools.

You argument that it is OK for local communities to tax people for any reason because it would be tyranny for the federal government to prevent it is absurd.  I would happily donate money to a federal government whose main mission is to prevent my state, county, city, community, etc. from robbing me at gunpoint to pay for social projects that Jeff likes.

But the logical flaw in your argument is the idea that if it is difficult to prevent a wrong, the wrong becomes a right.  It is difficult to prevent family violence, because people have a right to privacy in their homes.  The fact that a government would have to be extremely intrusive in people's homes in order to prevent it doesn't mean that it is then right to commit violence against family members.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #64 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 2:27pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:15am:
I think my voucher plan, where parents get education vouchers for the full amount that is being spent on their children in government schools is a good first step toward making education entirely free market,


Let them spend these vouchers on something other than education.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/16/the-5-states-that-spend-the-most-on-students.htm...

Some states spend 20k per year, per pupil, on education.

This is enough to feed a family, if only barely. This is also more than enough to make the difference between the income of the bad job mowing lawns, and the income of the good job you want them to have.

Add in all the state programmes that pile college money onto these kids, and you could easily just give them the kind of lifestyle you want them to have.

You said it was for this purpose, not me. So they don't have to mow lawns. If you just took the money you're spending on education, and gave it to them, they already wouldn't have to mow lawns. Education is an inefficient way to accomplish what you want.

Jeff wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:15am:
but I also think there are and will be communities that decide to tax their own community members in order to create and fund public schools and as I've said, I see no way short of tyranny by the federal government to prevent people from creating local governments, giving them the power to tax and having them spend the raised revenue on whatever they decide to spend it on. All of this is contingent on the local governments not being tyrannies themselves.


So what do you think of the Sharia courts in Britain? This is an example of communities creating local law, like you said. Indeed, they can't be stopped. But is it right? Is there a limit on what sorts of rules communities should be allowed to impose on themselves?

If one community said murder was legal, and the federal government swooped in and said, "nope," then I don't see that as tyranny.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Little Big Man
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #65 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 2:33pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 2:27pm:
Let them spend these vouchers on something other than education.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/16/the-5-states-that-spend-the-most-on-students.htm...

Some states spend 20k per year, per pupil, on education.

This is enough to feed a family, if only barely. This is also more than enough to make the difference between the income of the bad job mowing lawns, and the income of the good job you want them to have.

Add in all the state programmes that pile college money onto these kids, and you could easily just give them the kind of lifestyle you want them to have.

You said it was for this purpose, not me. So they don't have to mow lawns. If you just took the money you're spending on education, and gave it to them, they already wouldn't have to mow lawns. Education is an inefficient way to accomplish what you want.



Right,  because giving education to kids whose parents are unable/unwilling to provide it is fighting against genetics, which is nearly always a losing battle.  I’m a short guy, five foot four.  How much tax money should have been spent trying to prepare me for a career in basketball?

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So what do you think of the Sharia courts in Britain? This is an example of communities creating local law, like you said. Indeed, they can't be stopped. But is it right? Is there a limit on what sorts of rules communities should be allowed to impose on themselves?
.


OMG, I’ll be checking this thread like every ten minutes, I’m so eager to know how Jeff answers this one.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #66 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:41pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 2:27pm:
So what do you think of the Sharia courts in Britain?
They aren't legally British Courts are they?

If a community of Muslims want to submit themselves to Sharia law, they can, as long as nothing they do violates the laws of Britain.
  
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #67 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:45pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 2:33pm:
Right,  because giving education to kids whose parents are unable/unwilling to provide it is fighting against genetics...
Your contention is that anyone who is poor is poor because they are genetically inferior, defective, incapable of ever doing well or doing good? And that the children of anyone who is poor is also doomed by their inferior genes to a life of mowing lawns and cleaning pools?

You aren't thinking clearly.
  
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #68 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 8:12pm
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Snarky Sack wrote Today at 2:33pm:
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Right,  because giving education to kids whose parents are unable/unwilling to provide it is fighting against genetics...


Jeff wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:45pm:
Your contention is that anyone who is poor is poor because they are genetically inferior, defective, incapable of ever doing well or doing good? And that the children of anyone who is poor is also doomed by their inferior genes to a life of mowing lawns and cleaning pools?

You aren't thinking clearly.


First of all, the honest labor of mowing lawns and cleaning pools is hardly "doom" even in our existing society.  Those jobs allow even public school graduates to at least earn a living.  In a libertarian system, the most menial of workers will be able to make a good living.

Yes, IQ is the most reliable and valid predictor of success and genetics is the most reliable and valid predictor of IQ so it is more likely than not that a child from a poor family will get little benefit from an education.

It is also more likely than not that if a child with above average or even normal IQ is born to such a family, he/she/whatever will find a way to succeed.  That's a benefit of having a high IQ.  Even as only a near genius, I have thrived. 

It is also very likely that - absent taxes - people would form charitable foundations that would provide for the education of children with great potential who are hindered by their parents' lack of money.  Those kids would become the great leaders of the future and their offspring would likely be almost as great (almost due to a concept called "regression to the mean" that mind scientists and geniuses like Oppo will readily understand).

Did you get any of that at all, Jeff?
  

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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #69 - Dec 19th, 2018 at 7:40am
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 8:12pm:
Yes, IQ is the most reliable and valid predictor of success and genetics is the most reliable and valid predictor of IQ...
Says who?
  
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