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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Right and Wrong and Democrats (Read 1823 times)
The Opposition
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #70 - Dec 19th, 2018 at 1:12pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 19th, 2018 at 7:40am:
Says who?


Dude, I get you not taking this from me, but Burnsy does this for a living. He's an educator.

I know about all the bloody tests having a strong g-bias because I took them. I can go in blind and do better than someone without the same genetic privilege who just studied for six days. It's not right.

Or at least, if it is right, there's not much point to educating anyone.

I already proved to you, logically, that education is a purely competitive advantage. In other words, you educate people equally and it does not change the company's choice of who gets the job.

The company selects the same applicant and the taxpayer just trained their new hire for them. Simple Simon is still out on the streets, only now, he's wasted a bunch of his time as well as your money.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #71 - Dec 19th, 2018 at 3:24pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 19th, 2018 at 1:12pm:
Dude, I get you not taking this from me, but Burnsy does this for a living. He's an educator.

Except for when he's a grad student in psychology or running his business.

Please always refer to me as "Dude" in the future. I like it. Thanks.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #72 - Dec 19th, 2018 at 3:25pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 19th, 2018 at 1:12pm:
I already proved to you, logically, that education is a purely competitive advantage. In other words, you educate people equally and it does not change the company's choice of who gets the job.

I wasn't convinced by your logic.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #73 - Dec 20th, 2018 at 4:27pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 9:07pm:
When I hear about the latest thing the liberal left is doing, I usually cringe at their tactics.
Rather, you should cringe at their implemented policies-

https://reason.com/blog/2018/12/18/maine-decides-all-its-registered-liberta?utm_...
  

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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #74 - Dec 20th, 2018 at 4:28pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 9:07pm:
It occurs to me that only the liberal Left actually believes their ways are right.

All this time on a libertarian forum and you haven't noticed that libertarians think they are right and have evidence to prove it?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #75 - Dec 20th, 2018 at 4:35pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 9:07pm:
The Left feels the same. It's understandable that they rig elections, filibuster anything they don't like, or call for more referendums. They don't want the people to decide, because the people are wrong.
Sure, all of the people are wrong some of the time, and some of the people are wrong all of the time...

The "solution" is not to put "elites" or an "aristocracy" or "Royalty" in charge of making decisions.

The tyrannical minded people you are talking about think they are right to hire smart bureaucrats to make decisions for everyone and to make sure they and their friends become powerful and rich.

Edit: I agree that the supposed Republican representatives of the people don't actually represent the people in most cases, but it is in fact the Republican representatives of the people that the leftist tyrants want to stifle by any means available to them, including highly illegal (and immoral) means.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #76 - Dec 20th, 2018 at 6:15pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 20th, 2018 at 4:35pm:
Sure, all of the people are wrong some of the time, and some of the people are wrong all of the time...

The "solution" is not to put "elites" or an "aristocracy" or "Royalty" in charge of making decisions.

The tyrannical minded people you are talking about think they are right to hire smart bureaucrats to make decisions for everyone and to make sure they and their friends become powerful and rich.

Edit: I agree that the supposed Republican representatives of the people don't actually represent the people in most cases, but it is in fact the Republican representatives of the people that the leftist tyrants want to stifle by any means available to them, including highly illegal (and immoral) means.


The deeper point is that at some level, everyone is like the Leftist. You would fight tooth and nail against a law that made murder legal, because you believe that's objectively right.

The Leftists simply have more of this moral certainty than either of us do.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #77 - Dec 21st, 2018 at 7:21am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 20th, 2018 at 6:15pm:
The deeper point is that at some level, everyone is like the Leftist. You would fight tooth and nail against a law that made murder legal, because you believe that's objectively right.

The Leftists simply have more of this moral certainty than either of us do.
In matters of political economy, which is what we are discussing, "progressives" are certain that government by experts and bureaucrats directed by an "elite" (them, the "progressives") will produce the best results for everyone, and that is why they claim that their planning and directing and controlling is moral, because it will have the best results... But in fact, planning and directing and controlling by governments has horrible results and there is a huge amount of empirical evidence to prove it.

Libertarians and classical liberals and most "conservatives" believe that individual liberty in itself is a moral good, and that a limited government that protects rights and liberty and property and otherwise leaves people to plan and organize their own lives will have the best results, and in fact there is a huge amount of empirical evidence to show that they are correct, which makes their inherently moral position provably moral.

The only similarity is that that both libertarians and "progressives" have deeply held beliefs.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #78 - Dec 21st, 2018 at 11:58am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 20th, 2018 at 6:15pm:
The deeper point is that at some level, everyone is like the Leftist. You would fight tooth and nail against a law that made murder legal, because you believe that's objectively right.

The Leftists simply have more of this moral certainty than either of us do.


An interesting point.  I never thought of it that way, but you are correct. 

I do see a distinction between moral certainty based on expediency and moral certainty based on an overarching guiding principle.  For example, the non-aggression principle is my moral authority for insisting that murder be outlawed.  The ideological leftist insists on banning personal property rights claiming the equality principle as their guiding moral authority.

Jeff, being a semi-socialist, has no moral principle by which to claim that it is very, very right for local government to steal money from each other for public schools, but very, very wrong for the federal government to make sure black kids are allowed to attend the schools that their parents are forced to pay for.
  

Snarky no more!
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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #79 - Dec 21st, 2018 at 1:44pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 21st, 2018 at 11:58am:
An interesting point.  I never thought of it that way, but you are correct. 

I do see a distinction between moral certainty based on expediency and moral certainty based on an overarching guiding principle.
I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say "moral certainty based on expediency". Certainly "progressives" believe that their plans and policies are based on the "overarching guiding principle" that the common good and the general welfare justify any expedient actions by government, that the "collective" is far more important than any individual.
  

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