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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Right and Wrong and Democrats (Read 960 times)
The Opposition
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #80 - Dec 21st, 2018 at 10:10pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 21st, 2018 at 11:58am:
I do see a distinction between moral certainty based on expediency and moral certainty based on an overarching guiding principle.  For example, the non-aggression principle is my moral authority for insisting that murder be outlawed.  The ideological leftist insists on banning personal property rights claiming the equality principle as their guiding moral authority.


This sort of leads into my response to Jeff, but I don't think the Leftists actually want equality. Jeff certainly doesn't. He's well aware that it's illogical to make the next-[genetically]-poorest person have to mow lawns because no one should have to mow lawns. He'll reject more sensible solutions like normalising for IQ and then giving out scholarships based on test scores because he knows what he wants.

People who want redistribution likewise know what they want. You can test this at any time by forming a hypothesis about what they actually want and offering a solution that tanks their hypothetical want but increases the efficiency of their stated goal. If they reject it rabidly for seemingly no reason other than [insult] [insult], [more insults], then their actual want is made clear.

"I want to make sure every child gets an education, and force is permissible."

"What about using force and simply preventing anyone who can't afford an education from having babies?"

"Tyrant! Filthy tyrant!!! How DARE you use FORCE?!?! FORCE is NOT PERMISSIBLE EVER!!!"

Even if many Leftists are useful idiots, the ones at the top are willing to pursue their goals by any means necessary. To me, this means they're right. They have that absolute moral certainty.

Jeff wrote on Dec 21st, 2018 at 7:21am:
In matters of political economy, which is what we are discussing, "progressives" are certain that government by experts and bureaucrats directed by an "elite" (them, the "progressives") will produce the best results for everyone, and that is why they claim that their planning and directing and controlling is moral, because it will have the best results... But in fact, planning and directing and controlling by governments has horrible results and there is a huge amount of empirical evidence to prove it.


I think their "good results for everyone" sales pitch is just a lie.

I think Leftists know well the results of their policies. They're willing to lie to get those policies in place, because they believe those policies are a moral good.

Libertarians just aren't lying as hard.

But libertarians should be lying harder.

You believe your morality is right, don't you?

If libertarians don't believe libertarianism is right, why the Hell should anyone else believe libertarianism is right?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Right and Wrong and Democrats
Reply #81 - Dec 22nd, 2018 at 8:13am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 21st, 2018 at 10:10pm:
Even if many Leftists are useful idiots, the ones at the top are willing to pursue their goals by any means necessary. To me, this means they're right. They have that absolute moral certainty.


I think their "good results for everyone" sales pitch is just a lie.

I think Leftists know well the results of their policies. They're willing to lie to get those policies in place, because they believe those policies are a moral good.

This is pretty confused, but you are right that "progressive" leaders lie and that most of their followers are useful idiots.

While the useful idiots might believe that implementing "progressive" polices will have good results and thus be shown to be moral actions, their leaders are for the most part smart enough to know that the outcomes will be very bad, but are willing to pursue them in order to gain power and wealth for themselves.

The only plan "progressive" leaders seem to agree on these days is crony capitalism under one party rule. Perhaps some of them rationalize this political economic throwback to Medieval times by imagining that once they are rich enough and powerful enough, they can then, finally, somehow, impose a "socialist system" on the world.

BTW, being powerful and ruthless doesn't make you moral, especially if all your actions are immoral.
  
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