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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) CNN Makes Stunning Admission (Read 609 times)
Little Big Man
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Re: CNN Makes Stunning Admission
Reply #10 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:12am
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kaz wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:35pm:
Here you go, Cleetus: 

kaz:  "Assuming all else remains as it is now"

Idiot


So, apparently, Kaz, your New Years resolution is to pretend to be over your butthurt and come back, but then act out your butthurt all over again?  Let's have a grownup discussion of freedom vs. tyranny and forget the past, huh?

It is true that Jeff is very accepting of government that is an authoritarian kleptocracy as long as it steals from the people he wants stolen from and gives the stolen goods to the people he wants to have it.

If you are absolutely opposed to the theft of taxation, then what I say about accepting that doesn't apply to you.

I don't think freedom requires democracy and I certainly don't think democracy ensures freedom.  Given the choice between a government that takes my money by force and uses it to regulate my behavior but allows me to vote for its senior staff members and another government that leaves me alone but whose staff is chosen by some other means, I'll take the latter.

But . . . if the stated justification for a government's power is that it is supported by a majority, then it is inconsistent to say the least for that government to then limit the people who can vote.   

  

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kaz
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Re: CNN Makes Stunning Admission
Reply #11 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:32am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:12am:
So, apparently, Kaz, your New Years resolution is to pretend to be over your butthurt and come back, but then act out your butthurt all over again?  Let's have a grownup discussion of freedom vs. tyranny and forget the past, huh?

It is true that Jeff is very accepting of government that is an authoritarian kleptocracy as long as it steals from the people he wants stolen from and gives the stolen goods to the people he wants to have it.

If you are absolutely opposed to the theft of taxation, then what I say about accepting that doesn't apply to you.

I don't think freedom requires democracy and I certainly don't think democracy ensures freedom.  Given the choice between a government that takes my money by force and uses it to regulate my behavior but allows me to vote for its senior staff members and another government that leaves me alone but whose staff is chosen by some other means, I'll take the latter.

But . . . if the stated justification for a government's power is that it is supported by a majority, then it is inconsistent to say the least for that government to then limit the people who can vote.   



Still don't know what "assuming all else stays the same" means, huh, Cleetus?

When you want to have "real" discussions, show yourself capable of having them.  This is further proof you can't.

kaz:  Assuming I can't change anything else ...

Cleetus:  Aha, you want things like they are now!

Idiot

Be serious.  If your obvious reading comprehension mistake was honest, you would re-read it when I pointed that out and just say wow, you did a boner on that one, I did say that.

That you continue to ignore what I said and pursue your flagrant misrepresentation of it demonstrates yet again my point that you are a fundamentally dishonest piece of shit.  Which proves the futility of having a "real" conversation with you
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Jeff
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Re: CNN Makes Stunning Admission
Reply #12 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:33pm
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SkyChief wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 11:37am:
I think it was Jeff who suggested that only property owners should have voting rights.

Whoever it was,  I agree.
No, I said only people who paid taxes on money they actually earned should be allowed to vote, but I'll include people who pay taxes on investments too.

I want productive people voting and non-productive people doing whatever they do best, but not voting.
  
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Jeff
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Re: CNN Makes Stunning Admission
Reply #13 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:35pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:16pm:
You do realise that all welfare queens would suddenly have to pay a single penny in taxes per year, right?
That's why I said "on money they earned".
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: CNN Makes Stunning Admission
Reply #14 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:24pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:32am:
Still don't know what "assuming all else stays the same" means, huh, Cleetus?


I don't understand why you would want or expect "all else" to "stay the same."  Restricting the vote to only taxpayers or to only property owners or to only whoever would be a change for the purpose of bringing about other desired changes, would it not?

Or, maybe I'm wrong about that.  Do you just want non-taxpayers or non-property owners to be banned from voting just for the satisfaction of it?

I think you know exactly what you mean, and it might be a good point, whatever it is.  But you're not making it clear. 

Maybe if you wouldn't focus so much effort on the name calling and "yo mamma" jokes, you could explain things better.

  

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Little Big Man
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Re: CNN Makes Stunning Admission
Reply #15 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:45pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:16pm:
You do realise that all welfare queens would suddenly have to pay a single penny in taxes per year, right?


Yep, you're right.

That's the problem with government, especially American government.  Just when you think you figured out a way to slow them down, or get them under control, they find a work-around.  Americans are the world champions of the work-around and our government folks are no exception.  Which is part of the reason why we are so accepting of government's theft and intrusiveness.  We just work around it.   
  

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The Opposition
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Re: CNN Makes Stunning Admission
Reply #16 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:58pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:35pm:
That's why I said "on money they earned".


The government would just pay them a dollar to squish a cockroach or fill out a survey or something. It's not like the government is accountable for how they spend their money and what they call it.

kaz wrote on Jan 3rd, 2019 at 9:35pm:
Here you go, Cleetus: 

kaz:  "Assuming all else remains as it is now"

Idiot


Assuming all else remains as it is now actually is accepting the premise that the government has the right to take everyone's money and make horrible laws.

That's where the right to vote comes from: The right to a voice in how you are governed.

A law might get made tomorrow that criminalises eyeliner and mascara. Females should get a say in that, whether they pay taxes or not. They may only get a say by proxy of a representative but at least they have some say.

If the government can't commit these sorts of invasions, then of course only those paying taxes should vote on what's done with them.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: CNN Makes Stunning Admission
Reply #17 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 7:43am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:45pm:
That's the problem with government, especially American government.  Just when you think you figured out a way to slow them down, or get them under control, they find a work-around. 
SCOTUS gave them all the "workaround" they could possibly need when SCOTUS declared the commerce and general welfare causes to be grants of general power.

I'm certain that SCOTUS has never agreed to here a complaint that taxes on wages and salaries are Direct in the Constitutional sense and therefore must be apportioned, and that failure of our courts allows the federal government to fund all the unconstitutional things they do on the backs of working people.

It's not a problem with the government that the Constitution designed, it's a problem that derives from "progressive" interpretations that turned the Constitution on it's head.
  
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Jeff
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Re: CNN Makes Stunning Admission
Reply #18 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 7:45am
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:58pm:
The government would just pay them a dollar to squish a cockroach or fill out a survey or something.
Earning a dollar doesn't make you subject to the federal "income tax", it probably makes you eligible for the "earned income tax credit". Cheesy
  
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Jeff
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Re: CNN Makes Stunning Admission
Reply #19 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 7:52am
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:58pm:
That's where the right to vote comes from: The right to a voice in how you are governed.

Voting is not a right. That said, there are different ways to accomplish the goal of giving people a voice in how they are governed. Democracy is one way, and it's a way that has proved throughout history to be a very dangerous way to "give people a voice". Parliamentary democracies are a bit better, but they lack essential protections for individual rights... That's the essential concomitant requirement of good government, that the people's voice must to be restrained from accomplishing the destruction of liberty.

It requires a very carefully constituted government to insure both the consent of the governed and the protection of individual rights and liberty.

What are your thoughts on Nozick's Utopia?
  
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