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SkyChief
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Carbon Tax Scam
Dec 17th, 2018 at 6:25pm
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Any Tax is simply a means creating income for the government.

The government cant earn the money they love so much to spend.  So they must take it.

Gov't invents some crazy taxes in order to make itself bigger and more powerful.

Here's how the Carbon-Tax scam works:

Carbon producers such as refineries, mines, oil and gas production, and shipping are taxed according to their carbon footprint  - the bigger the footprint, the higher the tax.

These taxes flow to the government who then create entitlement programs for redistribution of the Carbon Tax monies.

But wait! - wont this hurt the carbon-producing industries?

Nope!!  They just pass on the tax to YOU - the consumer/end user.  Prices on energy go up, people have less discretionary income, and we all suffer. 

Except government.  They make out like bandits!   Smiley   Because they ARE bandits.  Grin

  
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The Opposition
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Re: Carbon Tax Scam
Reply #1 - Dec 17th, 2018 at 9:51pm
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SkyChief wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 6:25pm:
Nope!!  They just pass on the tax to YOU - the consumer/end user.  Prices on energy go up, people have less discretionary income, and we all suffer. 

Except government.


...And the energy producers. I don't think most people can run their AC any less than they already do.

So as you point out, the same for them, less for us, and more for the government.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Carbon Tax Scam
Reply #2 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:22am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 9:51pm:
I don't think most people can run their AC any less than they already do.

Sure they can. People can even live without having AC.

But that's beside the point. Let the market decide. Let individuals buy as much energy as they want and can afford. The relative scarcity of the energy will determine the market price.

It's the best known way to conserve resources.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Carbon Tax Scam
Reply #3 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 2:30pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:22am:
Sure they can. People can even live without having AC.


You'd think that, but the last time there was a mass power outage in South Florida, where I used to live, due to a hurricane, lots of people suffered heatstroke and died.

Jeff wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:22am:
But that's beside the point. Let the market decide. Let individuals buy as much energy as they want and can afford. The relative scarcity of the energy will determine the market price.

It's the best known way to conserve resources.


Actually, the best way to conserve resources is to just turn them all over to one person or company, and create a monopoly, as you want to do with lobsters.

Because the lobsters are all theirs, they also have an interest in preserving them, because any more lobsters that hatch are also, all theirs.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Carbon Tax Scam
Reply #4 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:35pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 2:30pm:
You'd think that, but the last time there was a mass power outage in South Florida, where I used to live, due to a hurricane, lots of people suffered heatstroke and died.
Right. They assumed they would never get old and the power would never go out... And they had no idea what heatstroke was or how to prevent it.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Carbon Tax Scam
Reply #5 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:37pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 2:30pm:
Actually, the best way to conserve resources is to just turn them all over to one person or company, and create a monopoly, as you want to do with lobsters.

I want legally protected property rights that people can buy and sell, and I want free competition.

Quit lying about what I say asshole.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Carbon Tax Scam
Reply #6 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:44pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 9:51pm:
...And the energy producers. I don't think most people can run their AC any less than they already do.

So as you point out, the same for them, less for us, and more for the government.
Why not, 50 years ago almost nobody had air conditioning. 


There are such things as externalities.  Harm caused by activity that does not directly impact the user or seller.  Increasing the costs of things will decrease demand.  If carbon emissions are a bad thing then taxing them is less bad than say, banning them or subsidizing alternative technology that may or may not be the best future option.  Artificially raising the price of the thing you don't want is one of the better ways to encourage the development of alternatives. 


  
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Jeff
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Re: Carbon Tax Scam
Reply #7 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:57pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:44pm:
Artificially raising the price of the thing you don't want is one of the better ways to encourage the development of alternatives. 


Are you a Baptist or a Bootlegger?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Carbon Tax Scam
Reply #8 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 5:22pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:37pm:
I want legally protected property rights that people can buy and sell, and I want free competition.

Quit lying about what I say asshole.


This was the plan you linked for the lobsters.

Here are your quotes on the matter.

Jeff wrote on Dec 4th, 2018 at 7:48am:
The Opposition wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 9:55pm:
How would you solve the problem of lobsters?

The ocean is a common resource and subject to the tragedy of the commons.

I have yet to see a good, libertarian answer to the problem of population and fish.


Here's one-

https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2016/05/01/for-sustainable-fisheries-priva...

Viewing the oceans as a commons is the problem, property rights are the solution.


The Opposition wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 9:32pm:
You're describing it in a very generous way. You're solving the problem of air being a commons by giving out property rights to air, to a few individuals, and letting them benefit from all uses of it.

Having TunaCo and SquishyFish Inc suddenly own the ocean is not a libertarian solution by a long shot, and worse, it's a sidestep of the issue that the ocean is not some pasture that can be divvied up and grazed - it is a natural commons.


Jeff wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 3:22pm:
Government claiming to own the air and water and everything in them is not libertarian.

The idea is to change that so the resources are privately owned.

It's a good idea.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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The Opposition
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Re: Carbon Tax Scam
Reply #9 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 5:25pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:44pm:
Why not, 50 years ago almost nobody had air conditioning. 


And I stayed at a friend's house that didn't have it. It was fine, because the house was built for the time.

Houses are built now so they heat up and require lots of AC to cool down.

ahhell wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:44pm:
There are such things as externalities.  Harm caused by activity that does not directly impact the user or seller.


Get Jeff to admit this and you win. I made a similar argument a while ago and he won by abusing this very idea as ridiculous.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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