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The Opposition
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Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Dec 18th, 2018 at 3:14pm
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On the face of it this is a silly question, but if a thing is not itself, and that can be proven, it simply means that thing is impossible.

Let's say you get a magic lamp, and a relatively benevolent genie pops out. He won't twist your wish. He likes you. He'll actually do his best to give you both the letter of your wish, and the spirit of it.

You wish for your country (presumably America) to be truly libertarian.

The genie does a little improv comedy and grants you your actual wish.

America is now libertarian, complete with private courts.

Now, the genie couldn't change the people. He couldn't change their hearts and minds, because genies cannot violate free will. Remember, they exist in a monotheistic cosmology, with the same supreme being giving everyone supreme free will, because that cosmology falls apart if your free will can be subjugated. Do you go to Heaven if you did a bunch of good acts under a geas? Do you not get your super-extra-special rewards for a grand act of good if some magic made you do it? It's a problem. So free will has to be inviolable in that cosmology.

Alright, so back on topic, the genie creates a libertarian society that's everything Rothbard said it would be. It's already got strong private courts, to prevent an actual government from rising up, but there's relative ease of entry into the market, too, and completely perfect free competition.

Market demand drives this free competition, and only 1% of the population in America votes libertarian.

Private courts that use the NAP are driven out of the market.

There's simply a stronger demand for private courts that do things like correcting social injustices. That's currently where the money is, and the genie didn't take anyone's money (that would be soooo anti-libertarian).

Petey's a libertarian. He quickly subscribed to a private court that followed the NAP.

Petey is arrested for microaggressions by Sally's private court. Petey hired a white guy over a black guy. As Rothbard lays out, they appeal to a third private court.

Because market demand is there for Sally's type of justice, and absent for Petey's idea of justice, most private courts uphold social justice. Sally wins on appeal. Petey is punished.

Because there's market demand for even more social justice than there already is, this will happen quick as lightning in a libertarian world, and slow as molasses in the world we actually have, because the government does not respond to market demand to make laws.

So congratulations. You made a world where the law of the land probably says you can't even own property.

Market. Demand.

There's virtually none for the NAP.

This means that even if you had some genie poof up a libertarian world, it would almost instantly be a lot less libertarian than this world.

You would lose freedoms. You would lose rights.

...And you probably should, because libertarianism is right.

Let the moneyed vote for the laws with their wallets. Let the private courts meet the demand that exists.

Is there any wish you could make, any possible way you could word it, or even any way for a benevolent genie with phenomenal, cosmic power (omnipotence short of violating free will) to grant it so that you actually get what you want?

No. Not unless you can change the hearts and minds of the people.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #1 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:27pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 3:14pm:
Petey is arrested for microaggressions by Sally's private court. Petey hired a white guy over a black guy. As Rothbard lays out, they appeal to a third private court.

Microaggression is a progressive construct.  In a real libertarian society, there are no such things as microaggressions.  A private Court would never waste time/resources with this nonsense.

The Opposition wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 3:14pm:
Is there any wish you could make, any possible way you could word it, or even any way for a benevolent genie with phenomenal, cosmic power (omnipotence short of violating free will) to grant it so that you actually get what you want?

Sure.  I would wish for one qualification of any and all elected lawmakers:

They must solemnly swear that they will never use taxation for the purpose of redistributing wealth. (IOW, never try to impose direct taxes)

If they should ever try to pass any form of direct tax, they will be immediately removed from office.

This needs to be in writing.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #2 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:53pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 3:14pm:
On the face of it this is a silly question, but if a thing is not itself, and that can be proven, it simply means that thing is impossible.

If a thing seems to you not to be itself, look within yourself for the discordance.

Nobody in their right mind calls a society libertarian unless it is a community of libertarians, in which case they are libertarian and so will be their society, if it is allowed to be.

In the larger sense, it's necessary to have a limited government to protect rights and liberties and freedom, so that libertarians are not oppressed and imprisoned and murdered.


  

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The Opposition
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #3 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 5:28pm
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SkyChief wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:27pm:
Microaggression is a progressive construct.  In a real libertarian society, there are no such things as microaggressions.  A private Court would never waste time/resources with this nonsense.


Of course it would because that is where the money and demand are.

The private courts that only arrest people for breaking the NAP will go out of business.

The private courts that arrest people for committing microaggressions will prosper.

Jeff wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
In the larger sense, it's necessary to have a limited government to protect rights and liberties and freedom, so that libertarians are not oppressed and imprisoned and murdered.


Of course it is.

You don't want people to just vote on policy, because then you don't get your way.

You don't want the free market to decide the rules, because then you don't get your way.

You want a government to take tax money from everyone and enforce the rules you like, and no one else does, because then, and only then, do you get your way.

Jeff wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
If a thing seems to you not to be itself, look within yourself for the discordance.


Yup. It's totally my fault that an even number between six and eight isn't itself. Oh my friggin' gawd. I've looked within and seen that logic is pointless! Than you Jeff, o holiest of holies!
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #4 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:06pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 5:28pm:
The private courts that only arrest people for breaking the NAP will go out of business.

The private courts that arrest people for committing microaggressions will prosper.


Courts don't arrest people.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #5 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:09pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 5:28pm:
Yup. It's totally my fault that an even number between six and eight isn't itself.
You were talking about  "...if a thing is not itself...". (emphasis added.) The number seven is itself.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #6 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:57pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
If a thing seems to you not to be itself, look within yourself for the discordance.



An excellent, if unattributed, paraphrase of Ayn Rand's famous line, "There are no contradictions.  If you think you have one, check your premises."

You should post either line into your sig so you can read it to yourself whenever you say that taxes are not armed robbery.



  

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The Opposition
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #7 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 9:36pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:09pm:
You were talking about  "...if a thing is not itself...". (emphasis added.) The number seven is itself.


You always win because you ignore all parts of what you're attacking that don't suit your case to recognise.

I said an even number between six and eight.

You would lose rights and freedoms under a libertarian system because the government artificially caters to you already.

Letting the market decide would produce the rules people want, and only the moneyed would have a say. You would get what is effectively progressivism.

And you want to get technical, so private courts would be trying people and punishing them, and private security companies would be arresting them. They would probably be two branches of the same company because it wouldn't be very effective to arrest someone you couldn't then try.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #8 - Dec 18th, 2018 at 11:11pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 5:28pm:
The private courts that arrest people for committing microaggressions will prosper.

1)  Courts don't arrest people.

2)  To be profitable, Courts would need to try cases where torts can be proven, and resolved by jury consensus.

There are no torts with microaggressions.  There are no profits.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #9 - Dec 19th, 2018 at 8:07am
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:57pm:
An excellent, if unattributed, paraphrase of Ayn Rand's famous line, "There are no contradictions.  If you think you have one, check your premises."

You should post either line into your sig so you can read it to yourself whenever you say that taxes are not armed robbery.



If your premise is that no government can ever be legitimate and therefore no government can levy legally authorized taxes, then of course you will be certain that all taxation is armed robbery.

Basic errors in your premise are obvious.

The most obvious contradiction is that robbery is an action that takes place outside the law, it is illegal, while taxation that is authorized by law takes place within the law and therefore is not illegal and not robbery.

I know you believe that it is not possible to grant any government the power to tax, and therefore think that any such grant of power is illegitimate and therefore outside what you see as a higher law, your right to property, which you think is absolute and extends to the prevention of any taxation.

I also know you have admitted that you believe that some limited government can be useful in protecting property rights, but you continue to insist that such limited government must be funded somehow without taxation.

I agree in principle that that is a wonderful idea, but it's also a utopian fantasy, and your proposed methods for non-coercive funding of government are worse than legal taxation because they will produce "governments" that are no more than privately funded gangs of thugs.
  

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