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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian? (Read 739 times)
The Opposition
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #20 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 11:06am
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kaz wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:38am:
Wouldn't it be more interesting to follow your own advice and have a real discussion?


I can't. If I insult you, you'll say it's a fallacy, but if you insult me, you don't admit the fallacy.

The Opposition wrote on Jan 2nd, 2019 at 1:56am:
Then address what I said, without just hurling insults and calling the idea that laws protect people childish.

Libertarians think I don't have rights. So why should anyone support libertarianism if it's so easy to define people out of having rights that approximately 3/7 libertarians do it?

Why wouldn't I support statism, since I've never even found one statist who thinks they can just gun me down and that it would be moral?


kaz wrote on Jan 2nd, 2019 at 7:50am:
OK, so I said you are naive and suck at reading my mind.  That's "hurling insults?"  On the Internet?  Maybe this isn't the place for you if you're that sensitive.


And here's where you started insulting.

kaz wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 8:29pm:
Wow, that's naive.  If I shoot you, government will draw a line around your body and make some inquiries to see if they can figure out I did it.  If they find out I did it, they will arrest me and try me for murder.  That doesn't do shit for you or your family.

Keep on dreaming.  I hope you never learn the reality of your childlike belief government will do squat to protect you. They protect my rights as the criminal, not your rights as the victim.  They also are far more likely to put you in jeopardy than me.  For example, keeping you from defending yourself with a gun.

Government protects you, that's classic.  It is actually wet behind your ears, isn't it?


You're calling the idea that laws protect people childish. You still won't address the basic point that libertarianism makes it easier to define people out of having rights than any other philosophy - so easy that three people on this forum have done so.

I'm not the obstacle to having an honest discussion here.

I don't misquote you. You say I misquote you to distract from the issue.

We were talking about whether a certain government policy (letting people vote on whether insurance should be mandatory) would be more fair than just making it mandatory without asking someone. If you don't have to address that because fairness isn't the job of government, you're saying government policy need not be fair.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #21 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:38pm
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What If? wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 3:32am:
Who decides on these laws? Do they have regular referendums to vote on laws?
Elected representatives make laws.

As perhaps you know, there are limits to what sorts of things they can make laws about, but I was specifically talking about laws to protect lives and rights and property.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #22 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:45pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:24am:
Your argument for allowing children whose parents cannot or will not pay for their schooling to get it at the expense of children whose parents can and will pay for their schooling is an argument against what you perceive as a social injustice, whether you are honest enough to use that term or not.  Your argument that it benefits the community for all children to be educated is an argument for force in service so social good whether you want to use that term or not.
Sorry, I don't think not having public schools is a "social injustice", I just think having locally controlled and locally funded public schools is a good idea.

I'm willing to say I believe not having an opportunity to get an education is an injustice to the individual child who doesn't get that chance, and I've already said I'd prefer to live in a community where everyone capable of learning has a chance to learn...

What exactly do you mean by "social injustice"? Something that harms an entire society equally? Perhaps when a government denies rights to everyone by, for instance, banning guns?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #23 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:47pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:38am:
Classic.  You're right about Enos of course.  And it's exactly what you keep doing to me.  Misquote after misquote after misquote.

Wouldn't it be more interesting to follow your own advice and have a real discussion?  Say about why I say government isn't about fairness?  I won't delve into an explanation of what I mean by that when I'm responding to yet another round of your misquoting me
Who's this Enos person?

Can't a government be considered to be acting fairly if it treats everyone equally under the law?

  
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Jeff
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #24 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:53pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 11:06am:
You're calling the idea that laws protect people childish. You still won't address the basic point that libertarianism makes it easier to define people out of having rights than any other philosophy - so easy that three people on this forum have done so.

Please name them. Please don't include me, since I consistently say that every person is born with the same inalienable rights...

It's just animals that I say don't have the same rights as humans.

You have self-identified as an evil sociopathic Dragon and alternatively as a Vulcan.

Why should it surprise you that I say you aren't human and as a non-human cannot be said to have been born with the inalienable rights of all humans?
  
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kaz
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #25 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:25pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 11:06am:
I can't. If I insult you, you'll say it's a fallacy, but if you insult me, you don't admit the fallacy


I insult you only when you misrepresent what I say.  Particularly when I point it out and you continue to misrepresent what I say
  

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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #26 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:30pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 11:06am:
You're calling the idea that laws protect people childish


Another lie.  I called you naive for believing that government has anything to do with fairness.  I didn't say what you said.  Again, if calling you naive and wet behind the ears bothers you, maybe the internet isn't the place for you.  Seriously. I only call you stupid when you continue to misquote me.  Like when I say government has nothing to do with fair and you misquote that as I don't believe fairness matters.


The Opposition wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 11:06am:
I don't misquote you


You seem to actually believe that despite my showing you one misquote after another.  So I take back that you are just overcharged in rhetoric by Enos and Cleetus and you're just butt stupid.

I stand corrected
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #27 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 6:39pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:38pm:
Elected representatives make laws.

As perhaps you know, there are limits to what sorts of things they can make laws about, but I was specifically talking about laws to protect lives and rights and property.

This is where everything falls down for me. People get power, then they get greedy.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #28 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:03pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:30pm:
Another lie.  I called you naive for believing that government has anything to do with fairness.


I didn't say it had. I just said laws protect people and you called it childish. Here's the quote.

kaz wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 8:29pm:
The Opposition wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 7:55pm:
Jeff could easily be correct that I don't have rights. There is strong libertarian justification for it. If so, I would be a fool to support a libertarian system. I, and everyone else without rights, would be much happier in a system that grants us effective rights.


Wow, that's naive.  If I shoot you, government will draw a line around your body and make some inquiries to see if they can figure out I did it.  If they find out I did it, they will arrest me and try me for murder.  That doesn't do shit for you or your family.

Keep on dreaming.  I hope you never learn the reality of your childlike belief government will do squat to protect you. They protect my rights as the criminal, not your rights as the victim.  They also are far more likely to put you in jeopardy than me.  For example, keeping you from defending yourself with a gun.

Government protects you, that's classic.  It is actually wet behind your ears, isn't it?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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The Opposition
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #29 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:17pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:53pm:
Please name them. Please don't include me, since I consistently say that every person is born with the same inalienable rights...

It's just animals that I say don't have the same rights as humans.

You have self-identified as an evil sociopathic Dragon and alternatively as a Vulcan.

Why should it surprise you that I say you aren't human and as a non-human cannot be said to have been born with the inalienable rights of all humans?


Actually you said Vulcans had rights. I called you out on being the only one in that scene in First Contact who blows away the aliens when everyone else is extending the hand of friendship, and you backpedaled as usual.

You were like, "Well uhm... Vulcans are Humans! Ninja vanish!"

I'm inserting "Ninja vanish" because we then had a conversation about what makes someone Human enough to have rights, you said it was respect for rights, I pointed out that I respect rights, and that wasn't good enough for you.

Here's the entire conversation.

Jeff wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 8:04am:
But it's really your refusal to admit that you are human that makes me say you don't have the rights that every human is born with.


The Opposition wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 12:44pm:
I guess you actually believe I'm Vulcan. (We're still the same species, bro, since I can make halfbreeds with your females.)

But this is actually what's incredibly disturbing to anyone but a libertarian about your viewpoint.

Can you imagine the scene at the end of the First Contact movie with a libertarian there? Everyone else is filled with wonder and awe to meet actual aliens and Jeff blows their heads off with a shotgun because only humans have rights.

Libertarians are sick in the head. If my sentience and ability to reason isn't enough to grant me rights, I don't want them.


Jeff wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 3:02pm:
Jeffrey Dahmer was sentient and possessed of the ability to reason, but somehow, he failed to become human, or perhaps he once was human and fell to the level of an animal, IDK.

Actual aliens might or might not be human, but the determination won't be made (I hope) based on their appearance, but on how they treat other humans. Hopefully they will be human (no matter what they look like) and will recognize that most of us are human too, meaning they will respect our rights, and we will respect theirs.


The Opposition wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 3:45pm:
You are clearly using a nonstandard definition of human that entails respecting the rights of others.


Jeff wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 4:47pm:
That's the standard definition of human, someone who respects the rights of others.


The Opposition wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 11:11pm:
I have told you, many times, that I respect the rights of others. That's not good enough for you.


Jeff wrote on Jul 11th, 2018 at 7:33am:
No, you have to convince me you actually believe that natural rights exist and that every human is born with them.


This is a play-by-play of said conversation:

Jeff: Only Humans have rights.
Opposition: You'd blow away the Vulcans because only Humans have rights? You're sick.
Jeff: Vulcans are Humans. Aliens who respect rights would be considered Humans.
Opposition: I respect rights.
Jeff: Not good enough.

And here's another quote:

Jeff wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:49am:
You have no more rights than an animal, because your understanding of rights is at the level of a predatory animal.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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