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Jeff
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #30 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 7:58am
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What If? wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 6:39pm:
This is where everything falls down for me. People get power, then they get greedy.
Or is it that if power is available, greedy people seek it because they know that power can make them rich?

That's the premise the founders of America used when they designed a government with only few and specific powers, and restrained those powers by dividing the power among competing interests.

Essentially, if there is no power to make oneself (or your cronies) rich by entering government service, greedy people will have to find ways to earn the money they want, or simply become common thieves and risk going to jail.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #31 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:04am
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:17pm:
Actually you said Vulcans had rights.
Do they? Where can I read Vulcan philosophical tracts regarding the derivation of Vulcan rights? What sorts of governments have Vulcans devised to protect Vulcan rights?

For all I actually know, Vulcans could be monarchists who view Humans as an inferior species to be used for the purposes of Vulcans.

Humans grant the right to be treated humanely to non-Human life forms, so I'd say automatically that Vulcans have the right to be treated humanely... Beyond that, there is no way to know if Vulcans qualify as Human or not.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #32 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 12:05pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:04am:
Do they? Where can I read Vulcan philosophical tracts regarding the derivation of Vulcan rights? What sorts of governments have Vulcans devised to protect Vulcan rights?

For all I actually know, Vulcans could be monarchists who view Humans as an inferior species to be used for the purposes of Vulcans.

Humans grant the right to be treated humanely to non-Human life forms, so I'd say automatically that Vulcans have the right to be treated humanely... Beyond that, there is no way to know if Vulcans qualify as Human or not.


Read your own quotes, shit-for-brains.

Jeff: Only Humans have rights.
Opposition: You'd blow away the Vulcans because only Humans have rights? You're sick.
Jeff: Vulcans are Humans. Aliens who respect rights would be considered Humans.
Opposition: I respect rights.
Jeff: Not good enough.

Jeff wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 8:04am:
But it's really your refusal to admit that you are human that makes me say you don't have the rights that every human is born with.


The Opposition wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 12:44pm:
I guess you actually believe I'm Vulcan. (We're still the same species, bro, since I can make halfbreeds with your females.)

But this is actually what's incredibly disturbing to anyone but a libertarian about your viewpoint.

Can you imagine the scene at the end of the First Contact movie with a libertarian there? Everyone else is filled with wonder and awe to meet actual aliens and Jeff blows their heads off with a shotgun because only humans have rights.

Libertarians are sick in the head. If my sentience and ability to reason isn't enough to grant me rights, I don't want them.


Jeff wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 3:02pm:
Jeffrey Dahmer was sentient and possessed of the ability to reason, but somehow, he failed to become human, or perhaps he once was human and fell to the level of an animal, IDK.

Actual aliens might or might not be human, but the determination won't be made (I hope) based on their appearance, but on how they treat other humans. Hopefully they will be human (no matter what they look like) and will recognize that most of us are human too, meaning they will respect our rights, and we will respect theirs.


The Opposition wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 3:45pm:
You are clearly using a nonstandard definition of human that entails respecting the rights of others.


Jeff wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 4:47pm:
That's the standard definition of human, someone who respects the rights of others.


The Opposition wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 11:11pm:
I have told you, many times, that I respect the rights of others. That's not good enough for you.


Jeff wrote on Jul 11th, 2018 at 7:33am:
No, you have to convince me you actually believe that natural rights exist and that every human is born with them.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #33 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 12:53pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 12:05pm:
Read your own quotes, shit-for-brains


Enos more precisely has pickled brains.  He just skims posts and gives a drunken and superficial response to whatever some of the words in the post make him think of
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #34 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 5:10pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 12:53pm:
Enos more precisely has pickled brains.  He just skims posts and gives a drunken and superficial response to whatever some of the words in the post make him think of
You think Vulcans have the same rights as humans? What do you know about Vulcans for sure? What makes you believe that the lizard is a Vulcan rather than an evil sociopathic dragon? Are you one of those people who think animals have the same rights as humans?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #35 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 5:12pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 12:05pm:
Opposition: I respect rights.
Jeff: Not good enough.

I advised you to act human and predicted that if you acted human and respected other people's rights, people would believe you were human and respect your rights.

Respecting the rights of others is something sociopaths seldom do...
  
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #36 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 9:49am
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This is a plan for a step in the right direction-

http://thecrux.com/a-thought-experiment-about-federal-entitlement-programs/
  
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #37 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 6:20pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 5:10pm:
You think Vulcans have the same rights as humans? What do you know about Vulcans for sure? What makes you believe that the lizard is a Vulcan rather than an evil sociopathic dragon?


It shouldn't matter. That's my whole point in saying I'm Vulcan.

If, instead of a humanoid, before you sits something that actually looks alien, not like you at all, and you can't have an honest conversation about whether it has rights, you're probably just unthinking.

But if you think people having pointed ears or green blood, or a society that you dislike, is an excuse to define those people out of having rights, you're a very very sick person.

My physiology might be significantly different than yours, but visually I am probably less different from you than a black person. (Though I admit I picture you as so rotten and shriveled that it's hard to tell whether you're Vulcan, white, black, whatever.)

Seriously. Think about that for a minute the next time you're pondering the question of rights.

If the kind of stupid groupthink "lol, obviously it doesn't have rights" you're trying to pull here is a good argument to you, you would have been one of the ones pulling black people out of the jungle, tying them up, and selling them for beer money.

I wouldn't because I actually self-examine.

I want to know where rights come from and why.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #38 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 7:30pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 6:20pm:
It shouldn't matter. That's my whole point in saying I'm Vulcan.

If, instead of a humanoid, before you sits something that actually looks alien, not like you at all, and you can't have an honest conversation about whether it has rights, you're probably just unthinking.

But if you think people having pointed ears or green blood, or a society that you dislike, is an excuse to define those people out of having rights, you're a very very sick person.

My physiology might be significantly different than yours, but visually I am probably less different from you than a black person. (Though I admit I picture you as so rotten and shriveled that it's hard to tell whether you're Vulcan, white, black, whatever.)

Seriously. Think about that for a minute the next time you're pondering the question of rights.

If the kind of stupid groupthink "lol, obviously it doesn't have rights" you're trying to pull here is a good argument to you, you would have been one of the ones pulling black people out of the jungle, tying them up, and selling them for beer money.

I wouldn't because I actually self-examine.

I want to know where rights come from and why.


In this country, our rights come from the concept that we can all make our own choices and government should be minimized to maximize our liberty.  Government should be a referee, not a kindergarten teacher.  And government should only perform tasks with force that expand our liberty.  Police, courts, property recognition, that sort of thing.

That is why the founding fathers were classic liberals who relied on writers like John Locke.  That our government no longer adheres to those limits on its power is why our government has become the primary source of tyranny in this country and is now completely illegitimate.  It's power is now based on the tyranny of the majority
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Would a Libertarian Society be Libertarian?
Reply #39 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 7:25am
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 6:20pm:
It shouldn't matter. That's my whole point in saying I'm Vulcan.

If, instead of a humanoid, before you sits something that actually looks alien, not like you at all, and you can't have an honest conversation about whether it has rights, you're probably just unthinking.

But if you think people having pointed ears or green blood, or a society that you dislike, is an excuse to define those people out of having rights, you're a very very sick person.

My physiology might be significantly different than yours, but visually I am probably less different from you than a black person. (Though I admit I picture you as so rotten and shriveled that it's hard to tell whether you're Vulcan, white, black, whatever.)

Seriously. Think about that for a minute the next time you're pondering the question of rights.

If the kind of stupid groupthink "lol, obviously it doesn't have rights" you're trying to pull here is a good argument to you, you would have been one of the ones pulling black people out of the jungle, tying them up, and selling them for beer money.

I wouldn't because I actually self-examine.

I want to know where rights come from and why.
Being human isn't about external appearances, but there are certain things that separate humans from non-humans.

Do Vulcans believe that every Vulcan is born with the same inalienable rights that I believe humans are born with?

Do evil sociopaths believe that humans are born with inalienable rights? For the matter, do sociopaths even recognize 'others' as human at all?

Can entities who don't believe that humans are born with inalienable rights be said to have been born with inalienable rights themselves?

Why questions such as you ask are beyond reasoning, but how people have derived the accepted ideas about the existence of rights is that they have used human reason to logically prove the existence of individual rights.

In my view, if you think I have no right to speak freely, you must logically prove that someone else, or something else, has the right to control or limit my speech and provide reasons why that would be so.

The longstanding classical liberal and legal position is that people who infringe on the rights of others (for instance thieves who infringe on my right to own property or murderers who infringe on my right to be alive) are criminals who's rights are forfeit because they've violated the rights of others.
  
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