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Little Big Man
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. . . and Mom and Dad can hardly wait for . . .
Dec 21st, 2018 at 10:14am
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. . . school to start again!

Bing Crosby sang that in 1945.  Even then, the primary lure of public school for parents was the "free" baby-sitting. They are certainly not for education, or parents would have stopped sending children to them as soon as they realized what a low quality education was provided there.

I'm sure when more women went to work during the preceding war years, all the Rosie Riveters were happy to not have to pay for day care.  Now, of course, nearly every woman "has to work," in spite of their natural desire to actually raise one's children. 

Free day care made it possible for more women to enter the workforce and the influx of available labor drove wages down to the point that working class families could no longer afford to have the wife be a mother instead of an earner.

The public schools were designed, not to educate, but to produce barely literate, barely calculate, young adults who were trained to be used to being confined in small areas and given boring tasks to perform.  Perfect for factory workers, clerks and security guards.  The "brightest" of them could become supervisors, just as they had become hall monitors and eraser clappers in elementary school.  At school they worked for nearly worthless certificates and then the went to work for nearly worthless currency.

No parent would voluntarily pay for and send their children to schools like that.  That's why we have taxes and mandatory attendance.  It's just like Obamacare.  "So good, we have to point guns at you to make you take it!"


 

  

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SkyChief
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Re: . . . and Mom and Dad can hardly wait for . . .
Reply #1 - Dec 21st, 2018 at 12:40pm
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Boston Latin School was founded in 1635 and is both the first public school and oldest existing school in the United States!

However, public schools as we know them didn’t come into vogue until the 1930s.  Affluent families typically paid private tutors to educate their children.  Less affluent parents in rural areas sometimes pooled their money to build community schoolhouses and hired a schoolmarm to teach the children.

December 10, 2015, Congress passed the Every Student Succeeds Act.  This guaranteed that every student gets a diploma.  (ESSA superseded the No Child Left Behind Act)

Today, high school graduation rates are at all-time highs. Dropout rates are at historic lows. And more students are going to college than ever before!

Alas, our young adults seem to be getting dumber and dumber.  Is the indoctrination process flawed?
  
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Jeff
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Re: . . . and Mom and Dad can hardly wait for . . .
Reply #2 - Dec 21st, 2018 at 4:02pm
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SkyChief wrote on Dec 21st, 2018 at 12:40pm:
Affluent families typically paid private tutors to educate their children.  Less affluent parents in rural areas sometimes pooled their money to build community schoolhouses and hired a schoolmarm to teach the children.

Exactly. They created local community public schools.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: . . . and Mom and Dad can hardly wait for . . .
Reply #3 - Dec 21st, 2018 at 4:58pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 21st, 2018 at 4:02pm:
Exactly. They created local community public schools.

It should be noted that these local community public schools were paid for by the parents of the children that would attend them.

These schools were NOT funded by property (or any other) taxes.
  
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Jeff
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Re: . . . and Mom and Dad can hardly wait for . . .
Reply #4 - Dec 21st, 2018 at 5:51pm
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SkyChief wrote on Dec 21st, 2018 at 4:58pm:
It should be noted that these local community public schools were paid for by the parents of the children that would attend them.

These schools were NOT funded by property (or any other) taxes.
That's fine with me, as long as they gave any child in the community who wanted to learn a chance to do it.

Black children in the slave states were excluded weren't they?

And sometimes black children were excluded in free states. Cry

Private and public schools both have past sins to atone for.

One thing we know for sure, parental control is necessary.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: . . . and Mom and Dad can hardly wait for . . .
Reply #5 - Dec 21st, 2018 at 8:55pm
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SkyChief wrote on Dec 21st, 2018 at 12:40pm:
Boston Latin School was founded in 1635 and is both the first public school and oldest existing school in the United States!

However, public schools as we know them didn’t come into vogue until the 1930s.  Affluent families typically paid private tutors to educate their children.  Less affluent parents in rural areas sometimes pooled their money to build community schoolhouses and hired a schoolmarm to teach the children.

December 10, 2015, Congress passed the Every Student Succeeds Act.  This guaranteed that every student gets a diploma.  (ESSA superseded the No Child Left Behind Act)

Today, high school graduation rates are at all-time highs. Dropout rates are at historic lows. And more students are going to college than ever before!

Alas, our young adults seem to be getting dumber and dumber.  Is the indoctrination process flawed?


When you make sure everyone succeeds, you rule out the selective process necessary to produce good results.

Someone has to mow the lawns. If you make sure the dumbest kid doesn't have to, the next-dumbest kid will have to.

You can go on and on dumping government college money on the "disadvantaged" kids, but not everyone can have a better-than-average job. If you lift the poorest guy out of this life, the next-poorest guy has to do it.

This is the system we have. The poor and the rich get to go to college and not the working class.

Getting a "good" job is a zero-sum game because somebody has to mow the lawns and drive the garbage trucks.

I'm cool with normalising test results for IQ (hey, even golf has a handicap) and then granting scholarships on that basis, but you'd get a spectrum of smart and dumb; you wouldn't just be jealously stomping on the smart for a tiny benefit to the dumb which actually hurts everyone when the dumb kids get the good jobs they can't do, due to whatever catchup measures you used.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Little Big Man
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Re: . . . and Mom and Dad can hardly wait for . . .
Reply #6 - Dec 22nd, 2018 at 7:47am
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SkyChief wrote Today at 12:40pm:
A Quote:
ffluent families typically paid private tutors to educate their children.  Less affluent parents in rural areas sometimes pooled their money to build community schoolhouses and hired a schoolmarm to teach the children.


Jeff wrote on Dec 21st, 2018 at 4:02pm:
Exactly. They created local community public schools.


Which were wonderful.  Only those who wanted to attend them did and only those who wanted to pool their money did.  The shop owners and cotton mill entrepreneurs were especially generous since liberate and calculate young people were an excellent source of labor.

No sheriff in his right mind would have gone house to house with guns demanding that farmers and saloon keeps pay for the school.  He would have been run out at the next election, if everyone was patient enough not to tar and feather him on the spot.

It was only after the next generation became sheep instead of free human beings that the disaster we now call our public schools was able to occur.

  

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Jeff
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Re: . . . and Mom and Dad can hardly wait for . . .
Reply #7 - Dec 22nd, 2018 at 7:53am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 21st, 2018 at 8:55pm:
When you make sure everyone succeeds, you rule out the selective process necessary to produce good results.

Right, advancing kids through school and giving high school diplomas to people who can't read or do simple math just destroys the value of having a high school diploma and forces people to continue on to college, where the value of a bachelor's degree has been degraded in similar fashion.

At the root of the problem is federal interference in local schools and a "progressive" belief that to be "fair" everyone must be gifted with rewards rather than having to earn them.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: . . . and Mom and Dad can hardly wait for . . .
Reply #8 - Dec 22nd, 2018 at 12:57pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 22nd, 2018 at 7:53am:
Right, advancing kids through school and giving high school diplomas to people who can't read or do simple math just destroys the value of having a high school diploma and forces people to continue on to college, where the value of a bachelor's degree has been degraded in similar fashion.

At the root of the problem is federal interference in local schools and a "progressive" belief that to be "fair" everyone must be gifted with rewards rather than having to earn them.


But you believe that as long as it is on the local level, it is alright to steal f rom those who earned wealth in order to provide an unearned gift of education to children whose parents are unable or unwilling to provide that education to them. 

Explain the contradiction if you are able to?

I think I have an  idea for funding education that would eliminate that contradiction in your thinking that makes you so uncomfortable to talk about:

Sack Academy!   Your work is your tuition!

Any child who desires an education will be put to work in a roving crew of handymen and handywomen.  Their adult leader will drive them to homes in their community offering their labor as house cleaners, yard mowers, leaf sweepers, painters, tire changers, oil changers and whatever else needs doing.  During summers, they can work the fields or sell refreshments at the beach.  The more charming of them can be the saleskids, ringing bells and explaining that they are working their way through school very literally. 

The non-certified school staff will of course also be students, perhaps of the later grades, student janitors, student teacher aides, student cafeteria ladies, student copy clerks, student office staff and student security (the last would probably not be needed in a libertarian world).  Student construction workers will be building the next campus.

Proceeds from the student labor would be used for the teachers, supplies, electricity, etc.  The students' "pay" would be their education, say one hour of school for every one hour of work.  The kids will definitely get the better end of that deal, since they will learn plenty about the life and about the value of an education pushing a lawnmower and picking cotton.

All races, all income levels, all genders, all nationalities all religions and all political persuasions will be offered equal opportunity at Snark Academy.  Each child will work as much as they can and will and learn as much as they can and will.

Jeff, what do you hate about my idea besides there not being enough guns in it?
  

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Jeff
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Re: . . . and Mom and Dad can hardly wait for . . .
Reply #9 - Dec 22nd, 2018 at 2:12pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 22nd, 2018 at 12:57pm:
But you believe that as long as it is on the local level, it is alright to steal f rom those who earned wealth in order to provide an unearned gift of education to children whose parents are unable or unwilling to provide that education to them. 

Explain the contradiction if you are able to?

I think I have an  idea for funding education that would eliminate that contradiction in your thinking that makes you so uncomfortable to talk about:

Sack Academy!   Your work is your tuition!

Any child who desires an education will be put to work in a roving crew of handymen and handywomen.  Their adult leader will drive them to homes in their community offering their labor as house cleaners, yard mowers, leaf sweepers, painters, tire changers, oil changers and whatever else needs doing.  During summers, they can work the fields or sell refreshments at the beach.  The more charming of them can be the saleskids, ringing bells and explaining that they are working their way through school very literally. 

The non-certified school staff will of course also be students, perhaps of the later grades, student janitors, student teacher aides, student cafeteria ladies, student copy clerks, student office staff and student security (the last would probably not be needed in a libertarian world).  Student construction workers will be building the next campus.

Proceeds from the student labor would be used for the teachers, supplies, electricity, etc.  The students' "pay" would be their education, say one hour of school for every one hour of work.  The kids will definitely get the better end of that deal, since they will learn plenty about the life and about the value of an education pushing a lawnmower and picking cotton.

All races, all income levels, all genders, all nationalities all religions and all political persuasions will be offered equal opportunity at Snark Academy.  Each child will work as much as they can and will and learn as much as they can and will.

Jeff, what do you hate about my idea besides there not being enough guns in it?
It's a silly idea but if you can get parents to pay you to put their 1st graders to work, go for it.

Check the child labor laws in your state before you invest money in the idea.
  
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