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Jeff
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Re: Rothbard on Knowledge, Property
Reply #10 - Dec 24th, 2018 at 8:33am
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 23rd, 2018 at 10:54pm:
That approach is more libertarian, because it requires the least government intervention.
 


Sure, and having no police or courts would reduce government intervention in the careers of other types of criminals too...

Why not say there is no such thing as property at all?

The really libertarian thing would be for everyone to respect everyone else's property, including their original ideas.
  
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Re: Rothbard on Knowledge, Property
Reply #11 - Dec 24th, 2018 at 2:33pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 8:33am:
Sure, and having no police or courts would reduce government intervention in the careers of other types of criminals too...


Having libertarian police and courts would eliminate government intervention into the careers of "criminals" such as unlicensed beauticians, dice game operators, drug retailers, prostitutes, and people who change lanes without signaling.  No money would be stolen from me to interfere with their pursuits of happiness.
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Why not say there is no such thing as property at all?


Because there is a such thing as property.  Certain kinds of property require government to be property.  Specifically land and intellectual property. 

The first caveman who figured out how to make fire by rubbing two sticks together didn't "own" the process any more than the first caveman who picked up a burning stick from a tree that had been struck by lightning and carried it into his cave.  Any other caveman who saw them do that could do the same, because there was no government to tell them not to.

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The really libertarian thing would be for everyone to respect everyone else's property, including their original ideas.


Ok, so if a caveman told his buddy that if he wanted to use fire to cook his bison, he had to give half of the bison to the inventor of the process and threatened to bash him on the head with rock if he didn't, would that be theft?
  

Snarky no more!
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Re: Rothbard on Knowledge, Property
Reply #12 - Dec 24th, 2018 at 4:54pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 2:33pm:
Having libertarian police and courts...
Police and courts that respected and protected individual rights without discriminating...

That's a fantastic idea Sack!

Any ideas how we can bring that about?
  
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Re: Rothbard on Knowledge, Property
Reply #13 - Dec 24th, 2018 at 5:00pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 2:33pm:
Certain kinds of property require government to be property.  Specifically land and intellectual property. 


Nobody ever owned land or their own ideas until governments were created?

You really believe that?

The lizard will tell you different. It will say whoever was the strongest owned the land, until somebody stronger came along.

In fact it's right, that's how it worked, and all ideas belonged to the tribe... (Most of them were discarded in favor of physical coercion. Cry)

Edit: You know how tribal thinking is...
  
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Re: Rothbard on Knowledge, Property
Reply #14 - Dec 24th, 2018 at 6:40pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 5:00pm:
The lizard will tell you different. It will say


...For you to answer Burnsy's question.

And that rights and morality are not on a sliding technological income scale.

If something is theft, then it's theft, whether it occurs in prehistory, or today, or in the last days of the United Federation of Planets.

Logic dictates you believe this, unless you don't actually believe in rights, and you believe they're pure constructs with no basis in reality.

My planet (and, a lot of others) "invented" fire before yours, by the way. So pay up, thief.

Little Big Man wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 2:33pm:
Ok, so if a caveman told his buddy that if he wanted to use fire to cook his bison, he had to give half of the bison to the inventor of the process and threatened to bash him on the head with rock if he didn't, would that be theft?


The whole bison. The IP owner doesn't have to be fair; the idea is his property. He can demand what he likes for it.

If I sew a Mickey Mouse doll, out of my own materials, IP means the end product is all theirs. If the end product simply belonged to both parties equally, I've previously argued that this would lead to more rational outcomes, like the IP owner being given 50% of the profits and the maker choosing how to sell it, but staunch believers in IP insist that in the making of the doll, I somehow stole.

If the idea itself was property, then I stole when I first saw Mickey Mouse.

If only physical incarnations of the idea are property, then I stole when I made the doll.

Either way this gets pretty bonkers. In the first case, seeing anything I don't specifically have the right to look at constitutes theft. In the second case, wouldn't it be funny if it turns out Disney was stealing all along because someone on Planet Gilgamech thought of Mickey Mouse first?

Stealing is still stealing even if you don't know you're doing it.

Wouldn't it be even funnier if Trostinn Villatombrinus (the real originator of Mickey Mouse) wanted me to be able to make the doll, but not Disney, making Disney the thieves? When they take a huge judgement from me for copyright infringement, they would be stealing yet again.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: Rothbard on Knowledge, Property
Reply #15 - Dec 25th, 2018 at 6:45am
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 2:33pm:
Ok, so if a caveman told his buddy that if he wanted to use fire to cook his bison, he had to give half of the bison to the inventor of the process and threatened to bash him on the head with rock if he didn't, would that be theft?
Using fire to cook meat was probably someone's original idea...

Did cavemen believe in intellectual property?

Much like tribes that didn't believe land was property (even though they often claimed it for their tribes exclusive use when they could), if someone doesn't think something is property and claim ownership of it, it can't be stolen from them.
  
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Re: Rothbard on Knowledge, Property
Reply #16 - Dec 25th, 2018 at 6:57am
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 2:33pm:
The first caveman who figured out how to make fire by rubbing two sticks together didn't "own" the process...
If it was his/her idea, they owned the idea, they just didn't have any means to enforce protection of their ideas other than keeping them secret or trying to kill anyone who stole the idea.

Certainly throughout history, where intellectual property wasn't protected, people tried to keep their valuable new ideas secret and probably often killed others who tried to steal their ideas.

One of the benefits of protecting intellectual property is that great new ideas don't have to be kept secret, and part of the idea of patenting/copyrighting things for a limited time period is that the great new ideas will, instead of being hidden, perhaps forever, will become free for anyone to use when the patent/copyright expires.

Lack of property rights, including intellectual property rights, causes great inefficiencies, constant conflict and the loss of knowledge.

Knowledge is built on previous knowledge. Even if you can't reproduce and sell someone's patented/copyrighted idea, just knowing about it can stimulate you to create something new because of their idea.
  
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