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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) In the Sprit of the Holidays, Praise for Government (Read 546 times)
Jeff
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Re: In the Sprit of the Holidays, Praise for Government
Reply #40 - Dec 28th, 2018 at 4:11pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 11:34am:
It was greed that motivated people to accept socialism...
Americans were motivated to support the New Deal for more than just one reason. Desperation and hopelessness were reasons for some people, most of whom believed the falsehood that the Great Depression was caused by capitalism.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: In the Sprit of the Holidays, Praise for Government
Reply #41 - Dec 28th, 2018 at 5:51pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 8:01am:
You mean like the power to control the economy by "regulation" or the power to create a Central Bank that is given the power to create "money" and control finance?

But, no, those aren't granted powers.


Right, but the government does those things anyway, so any distinction between granted powers and non-granted powers is woefully ineffectual.

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Of course, as usual, you think that all the un-granted powers currently being exercised by our government arose somehow directly from the granted power to tax, and my reply, as usual, is that the federal government is not granted any unlimited power to tax.


No, I don't believe that.  But the USSC does and the constitution does grant it the power to decide whether a particular action by the other two branches is constitutional or not.  Separation of  powers died a quick death with the Marbury v. Madison decision.  Or more correctly, with the Acceptance of Marbury v. Madison by the Executive and the Legislative branches. 

No doubt they were happy to have someone to blame for its failures and justify its over-reaching.

  

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Re: In the Sprit of the Holidays, Praise for Government
Reply #42 - Dec 29th, 2018 at 9:06am
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 5:51pm:
Right, but the government does those things anyway, so any distinction between granted powers and non-granted powers is woefully ineffectual.


No, I don't believe that.  But the USSC does and the constitution does grant it the power to decide whether a particular action by the other two branches is constitutional or not.  Separation of  powers died a quick death with the Marbury v. Madison decision.  Or more correctly, with the Acceptance of Marbury v. Madison by the Executive and the Legislative branches. 

No doubt they were happy to have someone to blame for its failures and justify its over-reaching.

Right, that's one thing that must be changed, any granted power must be made clear enough that even SCOTUS can't misinterpret it, although it's hard to imagine how "All legislative powers shall be vested in Congress" can be interpreted to mean it's OK if executive branch bureaucrats write laws.

I read the Constitutional text that grants the Supreme Court jurisdiction over all cases arising under the Constitution as giving that Court the authority to say that a law passed by Congress is outside the authority granted to Congress by the Constitution (or that a law passed by Congress has been wrongly applied by the Executive).

How do you think Marbury v. Madison changed that?
  
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Re: In the Sprit of the Holidays, Praise for Government
Reply #43 - Dec 29th, 2018 at 12:44pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 9:06am:
Right, that's one thing that must be changed, any granted power must be made clear enough that even SCOTUS can't misinterpret it, although it's hard to imagine how "All legislative powers shall be vested in Congress" can be interpreted to mean it's OK if executive branch bureaucrats write laws.


The justification is that congress grants regulatory agencies under the executive branch to pass regulations that have the force of law.  I don't agree with their doing that either, but at  least congress is granting to those agencies a power that congress itself has been granted by the people.  That is much different from a group of people granting to government  the power to steal when the group of people do not themselves have the right to steal.

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I read the Constitutional text that grants the Supreme Court jurisdiction over all cases arising under the Constitution as giving that Court the authority to say that a law passed by Congress is outside the authority granted to Congress by the Constitution (or that a law passed by Congress has been wrongly applied by the Executive).

How do you think Marbury v. Madison changed that?


You keep wanting me to say that the constitution has been changed.  Not a word of it has been changed outside of the amendment process, as called for by the constitution itself. 

As you admit, the framers did not make the constitution clear enough that even SCOTUS can't misinterpret it.  At the same time, they gave SCOTUS the power to interpret it as they see fit with literally no recourse since they have lifetime appointments.  I don't believe that was an accident.

Here's how I used to explain Marbury v. Madison when I taught high school Social Studies:  Imagine a husband telling his wife, "I want you to pick out all the furniture for the house, because anything is fine with me." But the wife says, "Oh, no you don't!  My part of the marriage vows said, Love, honer and obey.  That means you say what furniture we buy and I say, 'yes, husband.'"

Pretty sweet for the husband, huh?  He's the boss, now!

Nope.

He accepted the power to choose all the furniture, sure.  But he granted his wife the power to interpret the wedding vows and use her interpretation to win every argument.  Next year she can say they have to buy all new furniture because his vow was "in sickness and in health" and she's sick of that stupid plaid couch with plastic cupholders.





  

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Jeff
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Re: In the Sprit of the Holidays, Praise for Government
Reply #44 - Dec 29th, 2018 at 2:40pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 12:44pm:
The justification is that congress grants regulatory agencies under the executive branch to pass regulations that have the force of law.  I don't agree with their doing that either, but at  least congress is granting to those agencies a power that congress itself has been granted by the people.
The Constitution doesn't just grant all legislative powers to Congress, it says those powers are vested in Congress.

If you continue reading in Article I Sect. 8, where all the granted powers are listed, there is no power granted to delegate the powers vested in Congress to anyone else.

Could Congress grant the power to legislate to some private individual or corporation? Why not?
Since the power to delegate powers is not granted, there is no limit on the powers of delegation that have been assumed.

Would not Congressional legislation saying that Snarky Sack shall have the power to write rules pertaining to the use and protection of the nations natural resources be just as valid as granting that power to the EPA?

Why would one set of rules be said by SCOTUS to have the "force of law" while the other set would not?

In fact, as you are probably aware, large corporations that capture bureaucracies sometimes do write the regulations that go on to have the "force of law".
  
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Jeff
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Re: In the Sprit of the Holidays, Praise for Government
Reply #45 - Dec 29th, 2018 at 2:42pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 12:44pm:
You keep wanting me to say that the constitution has been changed.  Not a word of it has been changed outside of the amendment process, as called for by the constitution itself. 


Nevertheless, the Constitution has been changed from a document that created a limited government with specific enumerated and limited powers to one that creates a government with unlimited powers, and SCOTUS did it.

For 150 years, SCOTUS looked to the Constitution and asked "Where is such power granted by the text?" and "What did the Founders intend?" and "How does this harmonize with the intent expressed by the Declaration of Independence and the Preamble?"

That's what they did when they originally declared almost all of the New Deal to be unconstitutional...

When they revisited the New Deal cases, they ignored that 150 years of their own precedents and ignored the intent of the Constitution and decided that the commerce and general welfare clauses were grants of general power. They did this despite the repeated protestations of Madison and Hamilton that the Constitution contained no genera powers and despite the fact that, despite Congress often attempting to legislate in the first 150 years as if they had general powers, SCOTUS had always said they didn't.

Yes, SCOTUS changed the meaning and intent and operation of the Constitution, and they had no power to do it.

Congress and FDR both wanted unlimited powers to create a New Deal. SCOTUS was supposed to be the bulwark of individual liberty standing in their way, and they did, at first. You know what happened next.
  
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Re: In the Sprit of the Holidays, Praise for Government
Reply #46 - Dec 29th, 2018 at 5:45pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Dec 28th, 2018 at 11:34am:
Yes.  Because you can't farm if you can't own land.  People will just help themselves to what you grow and there won't be a way to stop them.  You can make canoes, mine gold and make jewelry or any other products and sell them and defend them from theft with locks, etc.  But what would you sell them for if not food?  So it is the farming that allows for those kinds of innovations.


Never a truer word has been typed.

The free market needs government, but it is also by definition not a free market if there is any government.

If people band together and protect their stuff, without specialisation, the specialised thieves will win, because they can invest all their energy in combat, and the farmer must invest at least some energy in farming.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: In the Sprit of the Holidays, Praise for Government
Reply #47 - Dec 30th, 2018 at 8:11am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 5:45pm:
The free market needs government, but it is also by definition not a free market if there is any government.

If people band together and protect their stuff, without specialisation, the specialised thieves will win, because they can invest all their energy in combat, and the farmer must invest at least some energy in farming.
A government that protects property rights isn't interfering in free markets, it's protecting free markets.

Markets only become un-free when governments interfere in the market.
  
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Re: In the Sprit of the Holidays, Praise for Government
Reply #48 - Dec 30th, 2018 at 5:26pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 30th, 2018 at 8:11am:
A government that protects property rights isn't interfering in free markets, it's protecting free markets.

Markets only become un-free when governments interfere in the market.


Even protecting rights could be seen as interfering in the market.

When a poor person is murdered and that murderer was a wealthy drug lord, the drug lord ideally should not be brought to justice unless there's a market demand to punish him.

If the wealthy drug lord is imprisoned against the wishes of the free market, that's interference in the market.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: In the Sprit of the Holidays, Praise for Government
Reply #49 - Dec 30th, 2018 at 5:50pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 30th, 2018 at 5:26pm:
Even protecting rights could be seen as interfering in the market.

When a poor person is murdered and that murderer was a wealthy drug lord, the drug lord ideally should not be brought to justice unless there's a market demand to punish him.

If the wealthy drug lord is imprisoned against the wishes of the free market, that's interference in the market.
Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  
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