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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The poor are poor because of their own choices (Read 844 times)
kaz
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The poor are poor because of their own choices
Jan 5th, 2019 at 12:59pm
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You want to piss off a leftist, there's no better way than to point that out.  It just reeks of their most evil enemy, personal responsibility.

It's actually a good truth, not a bad one.  Democrats of course don't want the poor to stop being poor, then they stop being Democrats.  But it offers a solution.  The poor are taught by their parents to make choices that keep them poor.  Instead of throwing money at them as we have done for over half a century proving it doesn't work, let's teach them to make better choices.

- Clean yourself up
- Get a job
- Work hard, care about your employer, be reliable
- Get experience and get a better job

And then
- Teach your kids to care about school
- Go to each and every parent teacher conference and ask what you can help your kids do better
- Get your kids to complete high school
- Get your kids to go to junior college and get an associates degree
- Then go from there

Obviously anyone in America can do the above.  There is no way to justify the view that anyone is keeping the poor poor but themselves
  

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AlayneLeung
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #1 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 1:21pm
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The poor aren't necessarily poor because many times rich persons rig economies and elections to benefit rich persons.  Here's three examples: 

1, many counties don't have abacusesbagsofbeadsfromboxesvotescounting, and so rich persons can covertly rig elections for rich persons to get candidates elected or reelected, and that violates libertarians' position on fraud) to benefit said rich persons more and more;

2, I've theorized that tobacco companies have bribed television stations to broadcast subliminal advertisements to get people to purchase (e-)cigar(ette)(s), and that violates libertarians' position on fraud;

3, many persons were killed or used for slavery (that violates libertarians' position on use of force) or to do unpaid servitude, and so they weren't paid fairly for any of that (and that violates libertarians' position on fraud), and so their poor descendants thus became poor.
  
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kaz
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #2 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 2:30pm
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AlayneLeung wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 1:21pm:
The poor aren't necessarily poor because many times rich persons rig economies and elections to benefit rich persons.  Here's three examples: 

1, many counties don't have abacusesbagsofbeadsfromboxesvotescounting, and so rich persons can covertly rig elections for rich persons to get candidates elected or reelected, and that violates libertarians' position on fraud) to benefit said rich persons more and more;

2, I've theorized that tobacco companies have bribed television stations to broadcast subliminal advertisements to get people to purchase (e-)cigar(ette)(s), and that violates libertarians' position on fraud;

3, many persons were killed or used for slavery (that violates libertarians' position on use of force) or to do unpaid servitude, and so they weren't paid fairly for any of that (and that violates libertarians' position on fraud), and so their poor descendants thus became poor.


And those prevent poor people from getting jobs and an education how exactly?  These are complete non-sequiturs to my OP post
  

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Josh
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #3 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 2:35pm
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AlayneLeung wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 1:21pm:
2, I've theorized that tobacco companies have bribed television stations to broadcast subliminal advertisements to get people to purchase (e-)cigar(ette)(s), and that violates libertarians' position on fraud;

Please explain how that is fraud.

Edit: I agree with the OP pretty much
  

I like big butts and I cannot lie.
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The Opposition
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #4 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 4:32pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 12:59pm:
Obviously anyone in America can do the above.


But why would they when welfare gives them more reproductive success and more money?

If they spend all their resources (time being a huge one) doing everything you suggest, they probably won't have resources left over to have six kids.

They'll be lucky to have one.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #5 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 5:23pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 12:59pm:
You want to piss off a leftist, there's no better way than to point that out.  It just reeks of their most evil enemy, personal responsibility.

It's actually a good truth, not a bad one. 
It's not always true. In fact, your thread title is something I consider to be a lie. There are many reasons that people are poor or can become poor. Bad policies implemented by bad governments can make large numbers of people poor through no fault of their own.

Try to think of people as individuals.
  
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AlayneLeung
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #6 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 5:36pm
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Josh, theoretically when businesses use subliminal messages to undermine persons' sense of judgement, I'd theoretically call that fraud.

Jeff, yes, bad policies of government can cause bad results that can cause persons to become into poverty or more povertious.

And persons that aren't compensated proportionally or fairly or justly or

quickly
accurately
superbly
adequately
readily

can become into poverty or more povertious.

And kaz, bad conditions can cause persons to make unwise choices because they don't have good conditions to make wise choices; that's why there's so much unemployment and lack of jobs and lack of education, and all that can cause more poverty.
  
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kaz
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #7 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:25pm
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AlayneLeung wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
And kaz, bad conditions can cause persons to make unwise choices because they don't have good conditions to make wise choices; that's why there's so much unemployment and lack of jobs and lack of education, and all that can cause more poverty.


No shit, that is what I said.  Their parents teach their poor children to make choices that make them poor. 

Anyone who cares about them would try to help them make better choices.  That obviously means the Democrats won't try to help them make better choices.

So what if you address my OP?  Obviously if the poor make the choices I laid out in my OP, they won't be poor anymore.  Which supports my thread title, they are making the choices that make them poor
  

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Jeff
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #8 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 9:21am
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kaz wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:25pm:
No shit, that is what I said.  Their parents teach their poor children to make choices that make them poor. 

Anyone who cares about them would try to help them make better choices.  That obviously means the Democrats won't try to help them make better choices.

So what if you address my OP?  Obviously if the poor make the choices I laid out in my OP, they won't be poor anymore.  Which supports my thread title, they are making the choices that make them poor
You lay out a good plan for most anyone to follow, and individual responsibility is key. But there are many "what ifs" that can make it almost impossible for a child (or parent) to see the value of what you say. What if you're born to a single Mother in a "progressive" inner city ghetto (or a dead coal mining town in the Appalachians), and no one around you has a job, you are assigned to a very low quality school where collectivism is taught instead of personal responsibility, no one at home or at school ever holds you responsible for your actions, there are no jobs available in your neighborhood, all of your peers say you are a sucker to study because "the system" is stacked against you from the outset, your Mother is an addict who sells her body for drugs...

Cleaning up might be something you can easily do, but getting a job will require not only that you finish high school, but that you leave your neighborhood or town. Where will you go? How will you get there?

Sure, everything you say can be done, but for many children, it's extremely difficult, especially when everyone around them tells them they are a victim of "the system" and can't escape and they graduate from high school unqualified to be accepted even by a trade school.

Too often, parents of children don't actually teach their children anything.

Let's start helping them by taking their schools out of the hands of the Dept. of Education and the teacher's unions.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #9 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 10:04am
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kaz wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 12:59pm:
You want to piss off a leftist, there's no better way than to point that out.  It just reeks of their most evil enemy, personal responsibility.

It's actually a good truth, not a bad one.  Democrats of course don't want the poor to stop being poor, then they stop being Democrats.  But it offers a solution.  The poor are taught by their parents to make choices that keep them poor.  Instead of throwing money at them as we have done for over half a century proving it doesn't work, let's teach them to make better choices.

- Clean yourself up
- Get a job
- Work hard, care about your employer, be reliable
- Get experience and get a better job

And then
- Teach your kids to care about school
- Go to each and every parent teacher conference and ask what you can help your kids do better
- Get your kids to complete high school
- Get your kids to go to junior college and get an associates degree
- Then go from there

Obviously anyone in America can do the above.  There is no way to justify the view that anyone is keeping the poor poor but themselves


What you're kind of missing there is that government doesn't just allow poverty in America, it encourages it in ways that make it extremely difficult for some young people to follow the steps you list.  When I was a teacher, I used to tell my student my shortened version which is:

1)  Finish high school
2)  Don't get pregnant until you are married and both of you have jobs.
3)  Get married
4)  Work any kind of job you can get.

People who do those four things won't be in poverty as in totally dependent on government. 

Unfortunately, they will likely be partially dependent because even with two mini-wage jobs, they will be eligible for food stamps, medicaid, section 8 housing, etc., as well as a "refundable tax credit" each year.

Programs like that are purportedly designed to allow the working poor to keep working.  Well, actually, that is exactly what they do, but not for the purported goal of helping the working poor.  That kind of assistance is actually a subsidy for mini-wage employers such as fast food which are run by huge corporations able to control the government through their lobbyists. 

They love the idea of middle-class taxpayers ponying up to keep their employees sustainable while working for $7.25 per hour.  It would be more efficient to raise the mini-wage to $15 per hour while sending Burger King enough tax dollars to make up for the increased labor costs.  That would cut out the bureaucracy that administers welfare for their workers. 

The idea of a law requiring a "living wage" would be an absurd idea in a free market.  Because who would work for wages that they could not live off of?  Mickey D.'s would be forced to pay their workers a "living wage" if government were not supplementing the mini-wage. 

But, more to my point, Jeff's beloved government schools begin indoctrinating kids early in the culture of dependency.  For kids whose parent are not on the dole, public school is their first government entitlement program and it comes with not only education, but free breakfast, free lunch for many and free entertainment in the form of elective "classes" in art, robotics, volleyball, etc., and after school activities.

Don't be blinded by partisanship.  The Twoparties are identical from the standpoint of freedom.  But the GOP has no more interest in ending the subsidies of mini-wage employers than do the Democrats.  When was the last time you heard a Republican talk about welfare reform?  Reagan? 


   
  

Snarky no more!
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