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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The poor are poor because of their own choices (Read 486 times)
Little Big Man
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #10 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 10:30am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 9:21am:
you are assigned to a very low quality school where collectivism is taught instead of personal responsibility,


You just described every government school I've ever been familiar with.  Why would you expect anything else from an institution whose entire existence depends on forcing people to pay for schools and forcing children to attend them?

In education, as in every other facet of life, taking the force out the equation will bring about vast improvements.  The guns ensure that mediocrity is the highest goal.

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they graduate from high school unqualified to be accepted even by a trade school.

Too often, parents of children don't actually teach their children anything.

Let's start helping them by taking their schools out of the hands of the Dept. of Education and the teacher's unions.


Without the federal government overseeing local governments, schools would still be segregated.  Black parents and white parents would be taxed at the same rates but black children will be forced to go to sub-standard school while white children will be forced to go to the mediocre ones. 

You think the states will do better without supervision?  In my conservative Republican state of Texas, we have a severe problem with illiteracy and dropout rates.  Yet our state board of education and our local districts have adopted the idea that "College for All Texans," a stunningly unrealistic goal.  Also an impractical one.

Classes like autoshop, woodshop, cosmetology and other job-skill training are dropped in favor of AVID (a college prep program for average to below average students), and advanced math and science.  No wonder more kids are dropping out as they realize local schools are not for them. 

If every Texan is going to go to college, who do we expect to dig our ditches, mow our lawns, build our houses and fix our cars?  Do they think people from Oklahoma and New Mexico are going to move here because our kids are all destined to be petroleum engineers and doctors? 

Nope.  Actually, those "conservative Republicans" in our state house fully and approvingly expect people to move here from old Mexico to do those jobs.  They piss and moan about illegal immigrants while running for an office that has nothing to do with border security.  But they aren't firing Juanita the undocumented maid and replacing her with Sherrise the American citizen.  They keep voting for welfare to keep Sherise quiet and not complaining about a border jumper taking "her job."

  

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kaz
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #11 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 11:28am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 10:04am:
What you're kind of missing there is that government doesn't just allow poverty in America, it encourages it in ways that make it extremely difficult for some young people to follow the steps you list.  When I was a teacher, I used to tell my student my shortened version which is:

1)  Finish high school
2)  Don't get pregnant until you are married and both of you have jobs.
3)  Get married
4)  Work any kind of job you can get.

People who do those four things won't be in poverty as in totally dependent on government. 

Unfortunately, they will likely be partially dependent because even with two mini-wage jobs, they will be eligible for food stamps, medicaid, section 8 housing, etc., as well as a "refundable tax credit" each year.

Programs like that are purportedly designed to allow the working poor to keep working.  Well, actually, that is exactly what they do, but not for the purported goal of helping the working poor.  That kind of assistance is actually a subsidy for mini-wage employers such as fast food which are run by huge corporations able to control the government through their lobbyists. 

They love the idea of middle-class taxpayers ponying up to keep their employees sustainable while working for $7.25 per hour.  It would be more efficient to raise the mini-wage to $15 per hour while sending Burger King enough tax dollars to make up for the increased labor costs.  That would cut out the bureaucracy that administers welfare for their workers. 

The idea of a law requiring a "living wage" would be an absurd idea in a free market.  Because who would work for wages that they could not live off of?  Mickey D.'s would be forced to pay their workers a "living wage" if government were not supplementing the mini-wage. 

But, more to my point, Jeff's beloved government schools begin indoctrinating kids early in the culture of dependency.  For kids whose parent are not on the dole, public school is their first government entitlement program and it comes with not only education, but free breakfast, free lunch for many and free entertainment in the form of elective "classes" in art, robotics, volleyball, etc., and after school activities.

Don't be blinded by partisanship.  The Twoparties are identical from the standpoint of freedom.  But the GOP has no more interest in ending the subsidies of mini-wage employers than do the Democrats.  When was the last time you heard a Republican talk about welfare reform?  Reagan? 


   


The OP is about the steps the poor can take to get out of poverty.  It's not a general discussion of what causes poverty.   So no, I didn't miss the point further delving into why the poor are poor. 

You are right of course that government has a lot to do with it.  They encourage dependency.  But there is nothing that prevents the poor from working their way out of poverty.   There are a lot of things that makes it "extremely difficult" to get out of poverty.  The government is only one.  However, nothing stops them. 

My father in law came from Korea not speaking English and when he died, Linda Carter and Sugar Ray Leonard were neighbors of his.  This is a great country.  In the end, it's your life and what you do with it is your responsibility.  That people born here speaking English can't do it is absurd.

Cleaning yourself up, working hard and getting better and better jobs and teaching your kids to take school seriously are not insights.  Poor parents have to care more about their kids futures.

Your steps are true, and they are essentially the same as mine.  Good job attempting to write a serious post.  You should have kept it shorter though, you can't focus and you delve back into your normal stupid crap addressing points that no one said
  

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kaz
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #12 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 11:35am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 10:04am:
They love the idea of middle-class taxpayers ponying up to keep their employees sustainable while working for $7.25 per hour.


Don't be blinded by partisan Republican/Democrat politics.  Workers get paid what they are worth.  The  alternative to a $7.25 an hour job for an unreliable, unskilled worker isn't $15 an hour, it's $0 an hour.  No one gets paid more than they are worth.  A $7.25 employee may decide to care and increase their wages to $15.  Someone with no job won't.  But hey, I got my experience from having owned five businesses and you got yours reading The Onion and listening to fake news

  

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The Opposition
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #13 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 6:32pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 10:04am:
Unfortunately, they will likely be partially dependent because even with two mini-wage jobs, they will be eligible for food stamps, medicaid, section 8 housing, etc., as well as a "refundable tax credit" each year.

Programs like that are purportedly designed to allow the working poor to keep working.  Well, actually, that is exactly what they do, but not for the purported goal of helping the working poor.  That kind of assistance is actually a subsidy for mini-wage employers such as fast food which are run by huge corporations able to control the government through their lobbyists. 

They love the idea of middle-class taxpayers ponying up to keep their employees sustainable while working for $7.25 per hour.

The idea of a law requiring a "living wage" would be an absurd idea in a free market.  Because who would work for wages that they could not live off of?  Mickey D.'s would be forced to pay their workers a "living wage" if government were not supplementing the mini-wage.


I've often lol'd at this myself.

You suggest the idea of the price of Ramen noddles and a room with a bed as a minimum wage for 16 hours of work per day, and libertarians will laugh in your face and tell you it's aggression and force.

...Precisely because they want to pay their workers less than it costs those workers to live.

...Through the magic of tax money, and the Seussical contraption known as government that sucks up tax dollars and poops out cronies' private property.

I've seriously had this conversation with libertarians. "You want a clean employee? Presentable? Pay one razor per week and a bucket of water per day. Why would you be uncomfortable with this if the free market would mandate this anyway?" "Because it's force!"

...Well, yes, but I don't know anyone else who'd be too upset at a law that made a minimal level of breathing mandatory. There are billions of laws and most people only get upset when those laws impact them negatively. (And libertarians get very, very upset at even the idea of a 15¢ minimum wage. Hmm.)

If government actually did the right thing and stayed out of it, the minimum wage would go up to probably (effectively) $20/hour. Workers making less than a living wage would starve off, demand for labour would outpace supply, and consequently, wages would spike. In fact, wages would spike up to beyond a living wage, because unemployment is now zero and businesses have to compete for employees, rather than the other way round.

But libertarians actually love the status quo. They can pay their workers $7.25/hour and pretend their workers are government-sponsored thieves while they are the victims. This is actually true, so I shouldn't say "pretend" - but it's not the whole truth.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Little Big Man
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #14 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 6:44pm
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Snarky Sack wrote Today at 10:04am:
They love the idea of middle-class taxpayers ponying up to keep their employees sustainable while working for $7.25 per hour.

kaz wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 11:35am:
Don't be blinded by partisan Republican/Democrat politics.  Workers get paid what they are worth.  The  alternative to a $7.25 an hour job for an unreliable, unskilled worker isn't $15 an hour, it's $0 an hour.  No one gets paid more than they are worth.  A $7.25 employee may decide to care and increase their wages to $15.  Someone with no job won't.


Interesting analysis and quite a departure from your usual childish attacks.  Well done!

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But hey, I got my experience from having owned five businesses and you got yours reading The Onion and listening to fake news



Oh.
  

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Josh
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #15 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 9:50pm
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AlayneLeung wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
Josh, theoretically when businesses use subliminal messages to undermine persons' sense of judgement, I'd theoretically call that fraud.

Seeing someone else use a product undermines one's judgement? It just makes them go out and use that product, which constitutes fraud?
  

I like big butts and I cannot lie.
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #16 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 1:04am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 10:04am:
What you're kind of missing there is that government doesn't just allow poverty in America, it encourages it in ways that make it extremely difficult for some young people to follow the steps you list.  When I was a teacher, I used to tell my student my shortened version which is:

1)  Finish high school
2)  Don't get pregnant until you are married and both of you have jobs.
3)  Get married
4)  Work any kind of job you can get.

People who do those four things won't be in poverty as in totally dependent on government.
   


I was lucky enough to have a mom who taught me to "invest half of what you earn". Every paycheck from the first job I had at Burger King, 50% went into a savings account. Then when I hit $1000 it went into a CD. When it got to $5000 I began buying shares and never stopped.

Since I began with $0 per week, 50% of my miniscule ~$70 weekly paycheck was $35 and I still felt rich as a kid. So I've never missed the money.

But I can see how it's completely different for those who are earning $100,000 a year and spend every cent --- cutting back by 50% would be very difficult for them!
  
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #17 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 6:23am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 6:44pm:
Snarky Sack wrote Today at 10:04am:
They love the idea of middle-class taxpayers ponying up to keep their employees sustainable while working for $7.25 per hour.


Interesting analysis and quite a departure from your usual childish attacks.  Well done!

 

Oh.


Respond to your attacks, and suddenly attacks are childish.   Yet again, you're a fundamentally dishonest piece of shit
  

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Jeff
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #18 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 8:30am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 10:30am:
You just described every government school I've ever been familiar with.  Why would you expect anything else from an institution whose entire existence depends on forcing people to pay for schools and forcing children to attend them?


Does that mean you agree that bad schools can contribute to the fact that some of the poor are poor?
  
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Jeff
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Re: The poor are poor because of their own choices
Reply #19 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 8:33am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 10:30am:
Without the federal government overseeing local governments, schools would still be segregated. 
It was not necessary for the federal government to take control of schools to desegregate them, it was only necessary as you say to oversee the state and local governments to make sure they weren't segregating schools by law.

Unfortunately, "progressives" decided that the federal government should control the schools.
  
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