Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Lincoln was a tyrant
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 12 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Lincoln was a tyrant (Read 1627 times)
Little Big Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5742
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #10 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 3:44pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 8:25am:
You're only fair at constructing revisionist history.

Congress was banned from outlawing the importation of slaves only for 20 years, not forever.


Oh, ooooonly twenty years, huh?

The Confederate constitution not only immediately banned the importation of slaves, it also required congress to enact laws to that effect. 

Quote:
It was another evil compromise with the slavers, but you should at least get your facts straight.


Slavers like Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Franklyn, etc.  Who is the most prominent founder who was not a slaver?  Were there any non-slavers?

  

Snarky no more!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 42681
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #11 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 5:00pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 3:44pm:
The Confederate constitution not only immediately banned the importation of slaves, it also required congress to enact laws to that effect. 
Yes, the plantation owners who were making large profits by breeding and selling slaves were cronies of the Confederate government, so the government was protecting them from competition.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 42681
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #12 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 5:07pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 3:44pm:
Slavers like Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Franklyn, etc.  Who is the most prominent founder who was not a slaver?  Were there any non-slavers?

Did I ever recommend to you that you should learn more, so that you don't keep saying foolish things?

Did non-slave owners and abolitionists vote to ratify the Constitution? Yes, lots of them.

Did the classical liberals who created America realize that slavery was evil? Yes.

Did they know how to end it without causing terrible problems for everyone, including the freed slaves? No.

For the most part, they believed that economic realities would make slavery disappear on it's own. They hoped that. They didn't consider that eh slavers might fight to preserve and extend the evil institution even though it wasn't economically efficient...

What did elite crony plantation owners care about economic efficiency as long as they remained rich masters?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 7986
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #13 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 6:01pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 10:39pm:
How about an honorable mention for Wilson?  He sure made a mess of things.   Wink


Yes, he gets an honorable mention for initiating our being policeman to the world.  Though Lincoln cannot be beaten as he eliminated consent of the governed, which is the whole basis of our government.

I'd give honorable mentions also to LBJ for turning war into an economic strategy and to FDR and Obama for making all Americans dependent on government (social security and Obamacare).  LBJ gets a double for medicare and W gets an honorable mention for adding a prescription drug welfare benefit.

Bravo for their efforts.  They overcame a lot of stiff opposition to be recognized for sucking above the others
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Big Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5742
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #14 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 8:57pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 5:07pm:
Did I ever recommend to you that you should learn more, so that you don't keep saying foolish things?

Did non-slave owners and abolitionists vote to ratify the Constitution? Yes, lots of them.

Did the classical liberals who created America realize that slavery was evil? Yes.


THen they were even more evil than those who sincerely believed that Africans were not human or that God had cursed them to be slaves.

Quote:
Did they know how to end it without causing terrible problems for everyone, including the freed slaves? No.


That is absurd.  Nothing is worse than being a slave.  The slaves freed after the civil war had problems, such as only being able to find work as sharecroppers and being discriminated against by the latter day Washingtons and Jeffersons.

What reason will you dream up to argue that it would somehow have been worse if it had been done as part of the constitution?

If the founders were really such reluctant slavers as you describe, why did they not write into  the constitution a plan for gradual abolition? 

Quote:
For the most part, they believed that economic realities would make slavery disappear on it's own. They hoped that. They didn't consider that eh slavers might fight to preserve and extend the evil institution even though it wasn't economically efficient...

What did elite crony plantation owners care about economic efficiency as long as they remained rich masters?


Now, thanks to Lincoln, we have the federal government as our own rich masters.

Thanks, Jeff!
  

Snarky no more!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9711
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #15 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:14pm
Print Post  
This is the same sillynanny who wants to make sure Vulcan culture is on the up and up before he'll say Vulcans have rights.

Jeff wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:04am:
Do they? Where can I read Vulcan philosophical tracts regarding the derivation of Vulcan rights? What sorts of governments have Vulcans devised to protect Vulcan rights?

For all I actually know, Vulcans could be monarchists who view Humans as an inferior species to be used for the purposes of Vulcans.

Humans grant the right to be treated humanely to non-Human life forms, so I'd say automatically that Vulcans have the right to be treated humanely... Beyond that, there is no way to know if Vulcans qualify as Human or not.


I read this, and I'm like... wow. Collectivist much?

Crushing social pressure, betrothals, elders who won't give you a betrothal if you cross them (and if you're a male, you'll probably die as a result from lack of sex)...

Yes, my society sucks. What does that have to do with me? Nothing, if you're a libertarian.

If Jeff had been born in the days of slavery, he would have looked at Africans living in huts and poaching each other for beer money and been like, "lol of course they don't have rights; don't be silly".

He now doubles down on the most morally high-and-mighty anti-slavery, anti-anything-to-do-with-slavery position because he recognises on some level that there is something wrong with his brain that prevents him from recognising basic rights on an inherent level.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 42681
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #16 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:25pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 8:57pm:
THen they were even more evil than those who sincerely believed that Africans were not human or that God had cursed them to be slaves.
In your uninformed opinion.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9711
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #17 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:27pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:25pm:
In your uninformed opinion.


People who do things they know are wrong are much more evil than people who do things they don't think are wrong.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 42681
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #18 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:30pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 8:57pm:
Now, thanks to Lincoln, we have the federal government as our own rich masters.
FDR and his tame SCOTUS had nothing to do with it?

How do you leap from the government of Lincoln to today without mentioning the "progressives"?

You imagine that the New Deal was built on  the precedents of Civil War court decisions?

Lead me through that construction of history, please.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Big Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5742
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #19 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 8:48am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:30pm:
FDR and his tame SCOTUS had nothing to do with it?

How do you leap from the government of Lincoln to today without mentioning the "progressives"?

You imagine that the New Deal was built on  the precedents of Civil War court decisions?

Lead me through that construction of history, please.


The use of force to prevent states who had entered the Union voluntarily from leaving the Union voluntarily set the precedent that the federal government can do whatever it wants and the states have only the options of accepting it or being invaded, killed, burned out of homes and put under martial law.

Absent that, many states would have left the Union to avoid the disaster of the New Deal.  Or more likely, FDR, fearing such an exodus, would not have implemented it in the first place.
  

Snarky no more!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 12
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Lincoln was a tyrant
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy