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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Lincoln was a tyrant (Read 1586 times)
Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #20 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:19am
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:27pm:
People who do things they know are wrong are much more evil than people who do things they don't think are wrong.
Isolating an action (such as the compromise on slavery made by the people who ratified the Constitution) from the background of facts and beliefs that surrounded the action can lead you to make incorrect judgements about the action.

It's an Ethics 101 thought problem from J.S. Mill.

If doing something you know is wrong will prevent a much greater wrong, is it moral to do it? Or, if doing something you know is wrong will have a huge beneficial result, should you do it?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #21 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:22am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 8:48am:
The use of force to prevent states who had entered the Union voluntarily from leaving the Union voluntarily set the precedent that the federal government can do whatever it wants ...
No, it set the precedent that states can't leave the union by making war on the union. At most it set only the precedent that states can't leave the union. That doesn't give the federal government authority to do "whatever it wants".
  
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Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #22 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:29am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 8:48am:
Absent that, many states would have left the Union to avoid the disaster of the New Deal.  Or more likely, FDR, fearing such an exodus, would not have implemented it in the first place.
Congress passed the New Deal. Congress was composed of representatives of the states. The 17th Amendment was already part of the Constitution, so state legislatures couldn't recall the Senators who voted for the New Deal. I find your imaginary scenario preposterous. What states do you think would have left the union? Landlocked states like Kansas?
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #23 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 11:08am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:22am:
No, it set the precedent that states can't leave the union by making war on the union.


That is absurd.  The U.S. occupation of the Confederate States was the cause of the war.  All the CSA asked was for the Union to withdraw its forces back to its own territory.

Are you seriously suggesting that Lincoln would have been willing to allow the Confederate states to leave in peace but that the Confederacy preferred a bloody war to just being allowed to leave?

I'd love to see your evidence of that!




  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #24 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 11:11am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 9:29am:
Congress passed the New Deal. Congress was composed of representatives of the states. The 17th Amendment was already part of the Constitution, so state legislatures couldn't recall the Senators who voted for the New Deal. I find your imaginary scenario preposterous. What states do you think would have left the union? Landlocked states like Kansas?


Texas for damned sure.  This time to stand alone, not wasting all its resources helping those swish pants prancing southern gentlemen. 
  

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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #25 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:01pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 11:08am:
That is absurd.  The U.S. occupation of the Confederate States was the cause of the war.  All the CSA asked was for the Union to withdraw its forces back to its own territory.


You have some evidence of this request? I've always thought that the CSA just attacked Ft. Sumter.
  
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #26 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:09pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 11:08am:
Are you seriously suggesting that Lincoln would have been willing to allow the Confederate states to leave in peace but that the Confederacy preferred a bloody war to just being allowed to leave?
My understanding was that the slavers knew that Congress would not simply allow them to withdraw from the union, so they ramped up their military and attacked.

You know there was already a war going on in Kansas and Missouri don't you? And that slavers were rushing to the territories to try to form new slave states.

The great fear of the slave states was that enough new free states would be admitted to the union so that the Constitution could be amended to end slavery. Civilized people would have allowed that to happen, but the elite aristocratic slavers who controlled slave state legislatures were not civilized. Just like Kings and Tsars, they thought they had a right to own people, and they were not willing to wait for slavery to be outlawed in America by legal means.
  
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #27 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:10pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 11:11am:
Texas for damned sure.  This time to stand alone, not wasting all its resources helping those swish pants prancing southern gentlemen. 
Texas was admitted to the union as a slave state.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #28 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 5:15pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 2:10pm:
Texas was admitted to the union as a slave state.


Yes.

As a Texan,,, I am deeply ashamed of that huge flaw in our otherwise glorious and free state.

I don’t praise the Texas founders for their wisdom in knowing that slavery was what was best for the slaves or that evil must be treated with kid gloves so it can be gradually eliminated somehow.

EDIT:

When the Union invaded the Confederacy, how much better off would Texas have been if it had freed the slaves and invited them to defend their new freedom by bearing arms against the enemy. 

The Union Army was composed primarily of conscripted slaves.  The difference in morale alone would have guaranteed that any U.S. invasion would have been routed immediately.



  

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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #29 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 5:41pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 5:15pm:
Yes.


How does having the mentality of a slave state make you believe Texas would have left the union to avoid the New Deal?

Don't you think FDR would have punished them if they left? Simply banning U.S. trade with Texas would have caused serious harm in an already greatly depressed economy... You know it was a world wide depression don't you?
  
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