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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #50 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 2:53pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 2:16pm:
California is full of American Citizens. Many of them will ask for the help of the federal government if democratic socialists take over California and intend to take it out of the union.

I will be advocating that they be helped.


You will advocate that federal agents use guns to prevent local people from making the decision about secession?

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Do you think California currently has a republican form of government as it's required to have?
For what that's worth, yes.

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Can the current government be seen as fairly representing the will of Californians?


Marginally so, like with any other representative republican form of government.

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Why won't the current government of California allow the counties that want to secede from California do so?


I don't know, but I do know that the constitution says that the power to make that decision is reserved to California and the people of California since all of the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #51 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:52pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 6:49am:
From wikipedia-

"Seventy thousand tons of granite were transported from New England to build up a sand bar in the entrance to Charleston Harbor, which the site dominates."

The artificial island on which the fort was built wasn't within the state of South Carolina. It was created by the federal government to help protect the United States.


That is an interesting point, but it doesn't change anything.  Charleston harbor was part of the United States only because it was part of South Carolina.  Since the U.S. Constitution reserves the power to decide on secession to the states respectively or to the people, once South Caroline seceded and joined the Confederacy, that harbor became part of the Confederacy.

If the U.S. had acted peacefully, no doubt it could have been compensated for that still-not-finished-after-more-than-thirty-years project. 

  

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Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #52 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 4:59pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:52pm:
That is an interesting point, but it doesn't change anything.  Charleston harbor was part of the United States only because it was part of South Carolina.

Actually, the U.S. government claims coastal waters.

There is no doubt that they allow dual jurisdiction for law enforcement and traffic control, but they are U.S. waters.

They even let S. Carolina have some control over fishing in the U.S. waters offshore off SC, but that's what it is, permitted action.

SC can't license you to catch federally protected fish or shoot seagulls from your boat in U.S. waters off the coast of SC.

Start with a better delusion, thanks.

Sumter was a U.S. Fort in U.S. waters.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #53 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 6:16pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 4:59pm:
Actually, the U.S. government claims coastal waters.


Oh, I didn't realize that.  What article and section is that?  I just read the whole thing twice and I didn't see anything about coastal waters.  Then I read this part to see who then does control the waters off of a state's coast:


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Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


Pretty clear.

By the time of the battle of Fort Sumter, North Carolina had used their reserved power to leave the United States.  Unless you are telling me that the tenth amendment has no legal force, the U.S. was an occupying force in that fort.



  

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Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #54 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 7:38pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 6:16pm:
Oh, I didn't realize that.  What article and section is that?
It's one of those things that governments do... What made you think Ft. Sumter was in South Carolina waters? Is that in SC's constitution?

If you dig into it a little, you'll find that the U.S. claims jurisdiction over all navigable waters of the U.S. and that SCOTUS says they are correct to do so.

Need I remind you of what you've said about SCOTUS?
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #55 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 11:32am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 7:38pm:
It's one of those things that governments do... What made you think Ft. Sumter was in South Carolina waters? Is that in SC's constitution?

If you dig into it a little, you'll find that the U.S. claims jurisdiction over all navigable waters of the U.S. and that SCOTUS says they are correct to do so.

Need I remind you of what you've said about SCOTUS?


Need I remind you that you have disagreed with me every time I've said that and you've accused the SCOTUS of "altering the Constitution."

So, which is it? 

Does the Constitution reserve to the states, or to the people the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States? 

Or is it just whatever the SCOTUS says goes?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #56 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:07pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 11:32am:
Need I remind you that you have disagreed with me every time I've said that and you've accused the SCOTUS of "altering the Constitution."

So, which is it? 

Does the Constitution reserve to the states, or to the people the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States? 

Or is it just whatever the SCOTUS says goes?
As I said, Ft. Sumter was a U.S. military installation on an island in U.S. waters. The U.S, built it with U.S. taxpayers money to defend the U.S.

That's a pretty strong claim, especially viewed against your claim that SC and the CSA wanted it for their own and therefore it should have been given to them.

What the slave states were planning to do was well known, they argued their position openly, even in Congress.

And you say the Civil War began because Congress and President Buchanan declined to sell or grant them Ft. Sumter? That's why they felt compelled to attack, it?

I guess you're right... Smiley
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #57 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 8:04pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 4:07pm:
As I said, Ft. Sumter was a U.S. military installation on an island in U.S. waters. The U.S, built it with U.S. taxpayers money to defend the U.S.

That's a pretty strong claim, especially viewed against your claim that SC and the CSA wanted it for their own and therefore it should have been given to them.

What the slave states were planning to do was well known, they argued their position openly, even in Congress.

And you say the Civil War began because Congress and President Buchanan declined to sell or grant them Ft. Sumter? That's why they felt compelled to attack, it?



As so often happens when you make up a position to argue against it, I said nothing like that.

The Confederate forces attacked the occupiers on their territory because they were occupiers on their territory. 

Since you have demonstrated that you understand that the constitution reserves powers to the states that are not granted to the federal government or forbidden to states, states had the reserved power to leave the Union and South Carolina had already done that.

  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #58 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 8:07pm
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Snarky Sack wrote yesterday at 6:16pm:
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Oh, I didn't realize that.  What article and section is that?


Jeff wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 7:38pm:
It's one of those things that governments do...


Is that the standard?  The federal government can do anything as long as "it's one of those things that governments do . . . ?"

If so, shouldn't the constitution have said simply:

"The federal government is empowered to do all of those things that government does."
  

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Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #59 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 8:30am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 2:53pm:
You will advocate that federal agents use guns to prevent local people from making the decision about secession?


I don't see that it's any of the federal governments business unless the part of CA that wants to secede does and then applies for statehood. What I asked was do you think CA will allow those counties to secede?
  
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