Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Lincoln was a tyrant
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Lincoln was a tyrant (Read 934 times)
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 40153
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #70 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 1:49pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 10:49am:
It's not my case to make.  The constitution makes it:

X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Does the Constitution delegate to the United States the power for forbid states from leaving the Union? 

No.

Does the Constitution itself forbid the power to leave the Union?

No.

Therefore, the power to leave the Union is reserved to the states or the people.


Reserved powers were powers that states possessed prior to the formation of the union. No state had a power to leave a union that didn't exist, therefore, a power to leave the union would be a new power, not a reserved power. Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 40153
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #71 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 1:50pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 10:49am:
By the time of the firing on Fort Sumpter, South Carolina had been out of the union for months.
So what? Ft. Sumter was still a U.S. fort on U.S. property staffed with U.S. soldiers.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 40153
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #72 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 1:52pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 10:49am:
It ok for you to argue that you want it to be that way.  But if you are claiming that the constitution actually says that, you need to cite the article and section.
The Article and section that say citizens of the several states became U.S. citizens when the Constitution was ratified? Are you saying they didn't?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 6958
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #73 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 1:54pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 1:50pm:
So what? Ft. Sumter was still a U.S. fort on U.S. property staffed with U.S. soldiers.


It was a fort on foreign territory staffed with invading US soldiers.

The United States was built on the concept of the consent of the governed, you don't grasp the basic principle of your own country.

Then again you do love government force to make our choices for us.  That while Opposition claims you believe in NAP. 

I'm starting to feel the meltdown coming on.  Six more days of this stupid shit sounds about right ...
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9049
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #74 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 1:58pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 1:52pm:
The Article and section that say citizens of the several states became U.S. citizens when the Constitution was ratified? Are you saying they didn't?


And before that, they were all British citizens, who, by your own arguments, had no right to secede.

*sips tea*
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 40153
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #75 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 1:59pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 10:49am:
I hope you will strongly agree that any government whose constitution allows slavery in any form is tyrannical.

Right, Jeff?


Of course you know about the compromise that the slave states insisted on in order to agree to join the union.

The slave states had tyrannical governments, so did the CSA, the U.S. simply made a hateful deal out of existential angst, it was not in itself tyrannical. It was designed as I often say to provide the maximum possible individual liberty to the maximum number of people possible.

That the slavers prevented many more people from being extended the benefits of Constitutionally protected liberty at that time was regrettable.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Big Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5477
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #76 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 2:00pm
Print Post  
kaz wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 1:54pm:
It was a fort on foreign territory staffed with invading US soldiers.

The United States was built on the concept of the consent of the governed, you don't grasp the basic principle of your own country.

Then again you do love government force to make our choices for us.  That while Opposition claims you believe in NAP. 

I'm starting to feel the meltdown coming on.  Six more days of this stupid shit sounds about right ...


Oh, I understand how you feel, Kaz. 

What could I do to help you stay on, just for example, until February second or so?
  

Snarky no more!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Big Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5477
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #77 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 2:03pm
Print Post  

Snarky Sack wrote Today at 10:49am:
Quote:
I hope you will strongly agree that any government whose constitution allows slavery in any form is tyrannical.

Right, Jeff?



Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 1:59pm:
Of course you know about the compromise that the slave states insisted on in order to agree to join the union.

The slave states had tyrannical governments, so did the CSA, the U.S. simply made a hateful deal out of existential angst, it was not in itself tyrannical. It was designed as I often say to provide the maximum possible individual liberty to the maximum number of people possible.

That the slavers prevented many more people from being extended the benefits of Constitutionally protected liberty at that time was regrettable.


So, a government whose constitution protects slavery is not tyrannical? 


  

Snarky no more!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 6958
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #78 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 2:24pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 2:00pm:
Oh, I understand how you feel, Kaz. 

What could I do to help you stay on, just for example, until February second or so?


Change your nature.

It's comic how you claim to have been a teacher when your whole shtick is eight year old.

Eight year olds do it because sure, it's annoying.  They want a reaction and they aren't smart enough yet to make real arguments, so they just do annoying things until someone reacts.  Then they giggle as if they accomplished something.  OMG, I got a reaction by acting like a little jack ass.  I rule!

No wonder you didn't last as a teacher.  You were no different than your students
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 40153
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #79 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 2:44pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 1:58pm:
And before that, they were all British citizens, who, by your own arguments, had no right to secede.

*sips tea*
Yes, they were also considered (rightly) to be in rebellion. But they won, so they became in fact the independent states they had claimed to be.

The right to overthrow or abolish tyrannical or unrepresentative governments is recognized in the Declaration of Independence.

The slavers were in rebellion against the future possibility that enough free states would be admitted to the union such that the Constitution could be legally amended per Article V and end slavery in America. They weren't being tyrannized.

Now the question arises, would it have been tyrannical of the federal government to amend the Constitution by means of Article V in order to end slavery in the U.S.?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Lincoln was a tyrant
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy