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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Lincoln was a tyrant (Read 1641 times)
Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #80 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 2:48pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 1:54pm:
The United States was built on the concept of the consent of the governed...
Except, as you constantly point out, the slaves who were not involved in giving consent to either the U.S. or the CSA.

The U.S. soldiers were in Ft. Sumter first, and teh fort had been built by the U.S. on land it created in U.S. waters. How did the soldiers stationed there become invaders? How was the transfer of a U.S. fort to a foreign nation occur, other than in your mind?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #81 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 2:50pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 2:44pm:
They weren't being tyrannized.


Isn't that for them to decide?

Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 2:44pm:
Now the question arises, would it have been tyrannical of the federal government to amend the Constitution by means of Article V in order to end slavery in the U.S.?


Not at all. In fact, I think it would qualify as a virtuous act if the North had allowed the South to secede, then invaded the South, and at last freed the slaves by force.

I don't think whether the federal government has that power on paper or not is the issue. Slavery is immoral. Just be aware that vegans might invade and liberate all your farm animals, and that if they're proven right in the future, because everyone turns vegan, then they were right all along. On the right side of history, as it were.

I think it was tyrannical not to let the South go when it wanted to go.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #82 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 3:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 2:48pm:
Except, as you constantly point out, the slaves who were not involved in giving consent to either the U.S. or the CSA.



Correct.

If consent of the governed is truly the standard for legitimacy of a government, neither of those are legitimate.

  

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Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #83 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 3:16pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 3:02pm:
Correct.

If consent of the governed is truly the standard for legitimacy of a government, neither of those are legitimate.

Yes, but as you know, perfection is an idea unobtainable in the real world, so there are degrees of legitimacy. The U.S. government was more legitimate that that of the CSA. Have you read the CSA Constitution?

Here's a link-

https://usconstitution.net/csa.html


And here's Article IV Section 3 clause 3-

3. The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.
  
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kaz
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #84 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 3:32pm
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That's what Locke, the founding fathers and others who wrote about consent of the governed said.  Oh, who are we kidding?  No one believes in that idealistic perfection, we're just joshing, you don't need to consent to the rule of your government for it to be legitimate ...
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #85 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 3:47pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 3:32pm:
That's what Locke, the founding fathers and others who wrote about consent of the governed said.  Oh, who are we kidding?  No one believes in that idealistic perfection, we're just joshing, you don't need to consent to the rule of your government for it to be legitimate ...
When you are philosophizing or propounding theories, you can, and probably should, talk about ideals and perfection.

When you try to apply philosophically derived theories to the real world, you must account for the imperfections of human beings.

Even in small private clubs, a need for rules is often seen, and the rules that are agreed on often do not perfectly please everyone, but, if you start out agreeing to abide by the rules that are formulated by a process that everyone agrees will be a fair process (for a small club, a majority vote will do) then the rules can be said to have been arrived at with the consent of the people who will be governed by them, even if not everybody likes all the rules.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #86 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 8:15am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 3:47pm:
When you are philosophizing or propounding theories, you can, and probably should, talk about ideals and perfection.

When you try to apply philosophically derived theories to the real world, you must account for the imperfections of human beings.

Even in small private clubs, a need for rules is often seen, and the rules that are agreed on often do not perfectly please everyone, but, if you start out agreeing to abide by the rules that are formulated by a process that everyone agrees will be a fair process (for a small club, a majority vote will do)


Well stated.

My question would be this:  If a majority will do for a small club, what will do for a government?  Considering that you feel that a government must have the power to tax citizens and even worse, such as conscripting them to kill and be killed in defense of that government, what suffices for an expression of consent to that?

Is a majority vote enough to bind everyone?

Quote:
then the rules can be said to have been arrived at with the consent of the people who will be governed by them, even if not everybody likes all the rules.


In a small private club, the members always have the option to leave the club and even to convince other members to split off and form another club.  I don’t think you would say that if the members’ great grandparents had formed the club, their descendants are bound to stay in it forever under penalty of being killed,  looted and burned out of their homes. 

Yet, you feel that was the appropriate response when some of the states who had joined the United States wanted to break off and form another nation.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #87 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 8:29am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 3:16pm:
Yes, but as you know, perfection is an idea unobtainable in the real world, so there are degrees of legitimacy. The U.S. government was more legitimate that that of the CSA. Have you read the CSA Constitution?

Here's a link-

https://usconstitution.net/csa.html


And here's Article IV Section 3 clause 3-

3. The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.


I’m not defending the pro-slavery stance of the C.S. Constitution.  I’m expressing surprise that you defend the pro-slavery stance of the U.S. Constitution.

“Nothing’s perfect” is a truism, but using it to defend the indefensible only furthers evil.

  

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Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #88 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 9:06am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 8:15am:
Well stated.

My question would be this:  If a majority will do for a small club, what will do for a government? 
The original plan of the Constitution is very good. Because granting any power to a government is a dangerous thing to do, the plan is necessarily more complex than a plan that will work fine for a private club.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #89 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 9:10am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 8:29am:
I’m not defending the pro-slavery stance of the C.S. Constitution.  I’m expressing surprise that you defend the pro-slavery stance of the U.S. Constitution.


I never defended it. I call it a compromise with evil and I'm aware of the reasoning behind the feeling that such a compromise was necessary.

I blame the perceived necessity for the compromise on evil slavers.

Had they been civilized, they would have agreed to ratify the Constitution without demanding that people they viewed as livestock for all other purposes must be viewed as "partial humans" for the purpose of giving the slavers more representation in Congress.


  
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