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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #90 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 1:44pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 9:10am:
I blame the perceived necessity for the compromise on evil slavers.




Were all the slavers evil?

  

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Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #91 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 2:38pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
Were all the slavers evil?

According to you, yes. Haven't you said that James Madison was an evil slaver who wrote the Constitution specifically to preserve the institution of slavery?
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #92 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 2:47pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 2:38pm:
According to you, yes. Haven't you said that James Madison was an evil slaver who wrote the Constitution specifically to preserve the institution of slavery?


Read this review of a biography of Madison:

Quote:
While drafting the Constitution, James Madison strove to ensure the protection of minority rights but also proposed that a slave be counted as three-fifths of a person. The contradiction, etched into the Constitution, would come to define Madison and a nation irreconcilably founded both on slavery and the ideals of liberty and justice.

This paradox lies at the heart of "The Three Lives of James Madison," by Harvard law professor Noah Feldman, who charts Madison's life as the "father of the Constitution," a political partisan, and ultimately a statesman in his roles as secretary of state and president. Throughout his lengthy book, Feldman maps Madison's evolution from a bookish and idealistic social theorist to a pragmatic political operative who fully recognized the immorality of slavery and the humanity of the enslaved but proceeded, out of the economic interests of his class, to stamp it into the nation's DNA.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/slavery-and-the-contradictions-of-james-m...
  

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Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #93 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 2:50pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 2:47pm:
Right, he was seeking a way to compromise so that the slave states would agree to become part of the union, not because he wanted to preserve slavery, which he didn't, but because he hoped to create a union that had a chance of surviving so that self-government and individual liberty under a government that served the people instead of ruling over them would have a chance to prove it could work.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #94 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 7:45pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 2:50pm:
Right, he was seeking a way to compromise so that the slave states would agree to become part of the union, not because he wanted to preserve slavery, which he didn't, but because he hoped to create a union that had a chance of surviving so that self-government and individual liberty under a government that served the people instead of ruling over them would have a chance to prove it could work.


And if you were one of Madison's slaves, you would buy that load?

  

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Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #95 - Jan 16th, 2019 at 8:41am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 7:45pm:
And if you were one of Madison's slaves, you would buy that load?

If I was a descendant of one of Madison's slaves, I might be very happy that the Union survived and eventually defeated the slavers and made slavery illegal in America.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #96 - Jan 16th, 2019 at 9:15am
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Snarky Sack wrote yesterday at 7:45pm:
Quote:
And if you were one of Madison's slaves, you would buy that load?


Jeff wrote on Jan 16th, 2019 at 8:41am:
If I was a descendant of one of Madison's slaves, I might be very happy that the Union survived and eventually defeated the slavers and made slavery illegal in America.


Is that a yes?

  

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Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #97 - Jan 16th, 2019 at 9:32am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 16th, 2019 at 9:15am:
Is that a yes?

Probably.
  
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #98 - Jun 2nd, 2019 at 8:02am
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The civil war was not about slavery, it was about the North conquering the South and forcing them to remain in the Union.  Our country was founded on consent of the governed.  The Civil War was when consent of the governed ended and the government no longer feared the people.  The rest was downhill from there.

1) The motto of the North was not end slavery, it was "Save the Union"

2) The North didn't invade the South to end slavery, they invaded when the South seceded

3) The North offered to end the war and legitimize slavery in the Constitution permanently if the South would end the war and agree to remain in the Union

4) If the war had been over slavery, the North could have just offered the South to leave if they ended slavery, they did the reverse proving what it was

5) In the end, the North conquered the South and forced them to remain in the Union even though the South still wanted to leave.

Only a true moron would still insist the war was over slavery since the North offered and the South declined to keep slavery if the South agreed to stay in the Union.  How more clearly could the point possibly be made that the war was over secession, not slavery?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Lincoln was a tyrant
Reply #99 - Jun 2nd, 2019 at 8:42am
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kaz wrote on Jun 2nd, 2019 at 8:02am:
The civil war was not about slavery, it was about the North conquering the South and forcing them to remain in the Union.  Our country was founded on consent of the governed.  The Civil War was when consent of the governed ended and the government no longer feared the people.  The rest was downhill from there.

1) The motto of the North was not end slavery, it was "Save the Union"

2) The North didn't invade the South to end slavery, they invaded when the South seceded

3) The North offered to end the war and legitimize slavery in the Constitution permanently if the South would end the war and agree to remain in the Union

4) If the war had been over slavery, the North could have just offered the South to leave if they ended slavery, they did the reverse proving what it was

5) In the end, the North conquered the South and forced them to remain in the Union even though the South still wanted to leave.

Only a true moron would still insist the war was over slavery since the North offered and the South declined to keep slavery if the South agreed to stay in the Union.  How more clearly could the point possibly be made that the war was over secession, not slavery?
Yes, yes, Lincoln was a tyrant and Jefferson Davis was a libertarian freedom fighter.

The fundamental issue that drove the nation into a war among the states was slavery.

Would it be allowed to continue (and even expanded as the nation grew) or would it be eliminated as it should have been from the beginning of America?

People were going to the U.S. Territories of Kansas and Missouri and fighting, really fighting, to try to ensure on  the one hand that slavery would be eliminated in the U.S. by the legal means of admitting enough Free states to the union so that the Constitution could be amended to eliminate slavery, and on the other to ensure that more slave states would be added to the Union so that the evil institution could be preserved.

You side with the "states rights" freedom fighters like Jeff Davis. I don't.
  
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