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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool! (Read 553 times)
Little Big Man
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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #10 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 5:43pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 5:34pm:
I predict your "reward" won't motivate many people to participate in your game. Cry


Spoken like a mind.  Scientist,   Sir!  Good analysis of my failure!

Many’s the time I’ve had a teacher with a difficult to motivate student quote me the time worn saying, “you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.”

I always say, “a great teacher would first make the horse thirsty.”

Unfortunately, I cannot feed you guys a handful of saltines before leading you to the well of knowledge.  So,I fear this challenge will go unanswered as have no many others.
  

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Jeff
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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #11 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 5:53pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 5:43pm:
I always say, “a great teacher would first make the horse thirsty.”


That's a problem, how do you instill a thirst for knowledge into children who don't seem to want to learn?

Also, how do you avoid hampering the natural curiosity of children who do want to learn?

These children aren't all the same are they?
  
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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #12 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 1:29pm
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Snarky Sack wrote yesterday at 5:43pm:
Quote:
I always say, “a great teacher would first make the horse thirsty.”


Jeff wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 5:53pm:
That's a problem, how do you instill a thirst for knowledge into children who don't seem to want to learn?

Also, how do you avoid hampering the natural curiosity of children who do want to learn?

These children aren't all the same are they?


Great questions!  I love those questions because I make a nice living answering them for often clueless public schools.

After years of study by mind scientists, the answer turns out to be remarkably simple to understand, yet complicated to apply.

Briefly (yeah, right):

There are three ways teachers can motivate students to  learn.

1)  Make them do the work, "because I said so."

2)  Make the lesson interesting and fulfilling ("engaging") enough that students are drawn into it and learn without feeling they are being made to "work."

3)  Pay them.

To understand which of these would work the best on most types of children, ask yourself which of them works on most types of adults.

If your boss told you he was not going to pay you anymore, but you will do the work, "because I said so," how motivating would that be? 

Mind scientists pursued number 2) for decades.  They wasted a huge amount of energy and frustrated teachers with the implication that their students don't learn because the teachers are not clever enough to be interesting.  How many activities are interesting enough for you to want to do them with enthusiasm for seven hours?  I even get tired of poker after about five hours.

Leaving number 3).  There are no districts with a budget to pay kids cash for learning, but there are all kinds of rewards, such as edible treats, field trips, time on computer, play time, sports and other UIL participation that are used as rewards for kids who learn as demonstrated by grades or by scores on specific tests.  Consistently tying the rewards to demonstrated learning is the key to success with this method.

The teachers who use this find that it works.  All the teeth has been taken out of "because I said so" due to administrators who are afraid of lawsuits and parents who are afraid to spank their kids.   It never worked will anyway past a certain age.  Option 2) works with a few very talented teachers, when they are teaching kids with a natural curiosity. 

The most motivated I ever see kids is when the candy sales fund raiser guy comes to the gym and teaches the kids how to sell it.  They laugh at his jokes, they clap, stomp the bleachers and cheer what he says until he raises one hand and then they instantly silence to listen to what he will say next.  That's because  he starts the lesson by handing out several dollar bills and he talks about the prizes the kids can win by selling, not about how important it is to buy new volleyball uniforms.

The company gets that money back in spades when all those motivated little sellers go home and call grandma.
 



« Last Edit: Jan 9th, 2019 at 2:49pm by Little Big Man »  

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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #13 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 3:04pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 1:29pm:
Snarky Sack wrote yesterday at 5:43pm:


Great questions!  I love those questions because I make a nice living answering them for often clueless public schools.

After years of study by mind scientists, the answer turns out to be remarkably simple to understand, yet complicated to apply.

Briefly (yeah, right):

There are three ways teachers can motivate students to  learn.

1)  Make them do the work, "because I said so."

2)  Make the lesson interesting and fulfilling ("engaging") enough that students are drawn into it and learn without feeling they are being made to "work."

3)  Pay them.

To understand which of these would work the best on most types of children, ask yourself which of them works on most types of adults.

If your boss told you he was not going to pay you anymore, but you will do the work, "because I said so," how motivating would that be? 


Children are not adults.

Adults presumably understand that the consequence of them not doing their work is the loss of their livelihood...

What does an eight year old know of any sort of consequence like that, a consequence that doesn't exist for children. Part of learning is learning that your decisions can have direct consequences affecting you, and that long term planning is often required to be successful.

What does a 12 year old know about long term planning?
  
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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #14 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 3:18pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 1:29pm:
Leaving number 3).  There are no districts with a budget to pay kids cash for learning, but there are all kinds of rewards, such as edible treats, field trips, time on computer, play time, sports and other UIL participation that are used as rewards for kids who learn as demonstrated by grades or by scores on specific tests.  Consistently tying the rewards to demonstrated learning is the key to success with this method.

The teachers who use this find that it works.
Yes, for many children I grew up going to school with, simply learning the lessons well was reward enough. For others, parental and teacher approval was a reward. (Believe it or not, even peers sometimes recognized and applauded good jobs at learning lessons.)

Extra curricular activities weren't offed as a reward, because everybody got to participate unless they didn't satisfactorily complete the learning tasks, in which case removal of the privilege sometimes worked as an incentive.

Parental disapproval and punishment worked for some children.

None of this instills a thirst for knowledge in children who don't seem to have it naturally. It might instill a thirst for rewards or an aversion to penalties, but not a thirst for learning.

I've heard from quite a few people about some particular excellent teacher that inspired them, so I have to go with good teachers as the best solution, with praise and the potential of loss of privileges (or even punishment) to back up the good teachers.

Just as an aside, one of my high school friends had a real thirst for learning how to become an auto mechanic, so he took vocational classes and spent half of his senior year in a program run by a local community college to train people to repair cars and trucks. He made a good living right out of high school doing what he wanted to do, and ended up maintaining high tech equipment for a company that manufactured high tech vacuum pumps.
  
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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #15 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 6:04pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 3:04pm:
Children are not adults


If only you had a nickle for every time a judge told you that
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #16 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 7:39pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 6:04pm:
If only you had a nickle for every time a judge told you that
That never happened.

What are you trying to say kaz?

Free speech is allowed here as far as I can tell as long as you don't sound too much like a racist too often. Speak your mind, preferably in a way that will contribute to the conversation. Thanks.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #17 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 7:39pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 3:04pm:
Children are not adults.

Adults presumably understand that the consequence of them not doing their work is the loss of their livelihood...

What does an eight year old know of any sort of consequence like that, a consequence that doesn't exist for children. Part of learning is learning that your decisions can have direct consequences affecting you, and that long term planning is often required to be successful.

What does a 12 year old know about long term planning?


Not one crappity smacking thing.  That's why you have to motivate them with immediate rewards. 
  

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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #18 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 7:54pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 7:39pm:
Not one crappity smacking thing.  That's why you have to motivate them with immediate rewards. 
That works for some kids, but the rewards available to give to school children for trying to learn don't motivate some kids at all.

In fact, if they get beat up on the way home for getting an A, they aren't interested in a gold star from the teacher at all, especially if everybody gets a gold star just for breathing.

"Great job Billy" is enough for some, paying them a living wage wouldn't work for others.
  
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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #19 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:08pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 3:18pm:
I've heard from quite a few people about some particular excellent teacher that inspired them, so I have to go with good teachers as the best solution, with praise and the potential of loss of privileges (or even punishment) to back up the good teachers.


Those teacher/parent combinations are the norm for private schools.  You can't duplicate them in tax-funded schools for several reasons that may well each deserve their own thread. 

It's wishful thinking unfortunately.
  

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