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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool! (Read 2148 times)
Jeff
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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #20 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 6:38am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:08pm:
Those teacher/parent combinations are the norm for private schools.  You can't duplicate them in tax-funded schools for several reasons that may well each deserve their own thread. 


Teacher's unions?

Apparently, rewarding children for learning is possible in public schools? Is it not being done, or is it simply ineffective?
  

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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #21 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 7:35am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 3:18pm:
Yes, for many children I grew up going to school with, simply learning the lessons well was reward enough. For others, parental and teacher approval was a reward. (Believe it or not, even peers sometimes recognized and applauded good jobs at learning lessons.)

Right.  All good examples of rewards.  But it turns out that with children who are not motivated by those kinds of rewards, intensifying the rewards and being very clear about the criteria for earning them can often be effective.

[quote]Extra curricular activities weren't offed as a reward, because everybody got to participate unless they didn't satisfactorily complete the learning tasks, in which case removal of the privilege sometimes worked as an incentive.


Right, and one of the key principles that mind scientists have learned in behavior research is that offering the extracurriculars as a reward for learning is much more effective than offering to every except those who don't learn.  If a reward is tied to good grades and good grades are tied to learning, the reward works.  If one of those links is broken, it doesn't.

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Parental disapproval and punishment worked for some children.

None of this instills a thirst for knowledge in children who don't seem to have it naturally. It might instill a thirst for rewards or an aversion to penalties, but not a thirst for learning.


Right.  But is the goal that the children learn or that the children have a thirst for learning?  If I want the horse to drink, a handful of saltines is much more effective than an inspirational speech about the benefits of staying hydrated.  Even more effective is giving the horse an apple on a random schedule after he drinks the water.  The random schedule ensure that the apple is seen as a reward, but that not getting the apple not seen as a punishment.

A teacher singing the praises of education will be no more comprehensible to a kid whose family life is in chaos than my praise of water would be to a horse.

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I've heard from quite a few people about some particular excellent teacher that inspired them, so I have to go with good teachers as the best solution, with praise and the potential of loss of privileges (or even punishment) to back up the good teachers.


That is the ideal.  How can tax-funded schools attract these teachers?

To help you answer, keep in mind that almost all teachers have bachelors degrees and many have masters, but they are paid less than people who have sixty hours of college and then went to the police or firefighter academy.  Because of this, there are basically three types of teachers:

1)  Teachers who went to college and got a degree in the easiest major, which is education, or got a low GPA in another major and got certified because they couldn't find a job anywhere else.  2)  Teachers who have spouses with higher paying jobs who teach for pocket money and to enjoy summers and breaks with their kids, 3)  Teachers who teach because they have a passion for teaching and are willing to sacrifice money they could make elsewhere.  There is some overlap between 3) and 2), but they are few and far between.   

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Just as an aside, one of my high school friends had a real thirst for learning how to become an auto mechanic, so he took vocational classes and spent half of his senior year in a program run by a local community college to train people to repair cars and trucks. He made a good living right out of high school doing what he wanted to do, and ended up maintaining high tech equipment for a company that manufactured high tech vacuum pumps.


Yes, we need schools that recognize that some kids don't need to learn Pythagorean Theorem.   Some kids need job skills.  At least when the factory owners paid for schools for there future workers, those schools understood that.
  

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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #22 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 7:50am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 6:38am:
Teacher's unions?


Yeah, I know you want teachers unions to be the scapegoat for poor education in tax-funded schools.  That and the federal government who you only think should get involved if the local controllers want to segregate by race.

Teachers unions really have very little influence on how schools are run.  They spend a huge chunk of their time and money supporting the Democratic Party.  They don't influence the curriculum and they don't force schools to accept low-performing teachers.

The reason tax-funded schools don't get many good teachers is explained in the post above.

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Apparently, rewarding children for learning is possible in public schools? Is it not being done, or is it simply ineffective?


It is either not being done or not being done effectively in most schools.  I often ask individual teachers, "what reward system do you have in place?" and the most common response is a blank look.  Sometimes I am pleasantly surprised, such as when I go into a classroom and the teacher has a candy jar prominently displayed on her desk.

Teachers get set in their ways, they often see no benefit to themselves in making the extra effort to set up a reward system.  They prefer to use their "teacher voice" to get compliance and send non-compliant students to the office.  If the only goal is compliance, that will often get you there.  If your goal is that the students learn, you need to give them a reason to want to want to learn, not just to be compliant.



  

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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #23 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 1:53pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 7:35am:


R
Right.  But is the goal that the children learn or that the children have a thirst for learning?  If I want the horse to drink, a handful of saltines is much more effective than an inspirational speech about the benefits of staying hydrated.  Even more effective is giving the horse an apple on a random schedule after he drinks the water.  The random schedule ensure that the apple is seen as a reward, but that not getting the apple not seen as a punishment.

A teacher singing the praises of education will be no more comprehensible to a kid whose family life is in chaos than my praise of water would be to a horse.
It wasn't me who brought up the idea of instilling a thirst for learning in children, and yes the goal is to have them learn. Teachers can reward children simply by praising them, but yes again, some children need to have something like the threat of no longer being allowed to play sports.

Yes again, it's long been known that intermittent reinforcement works better.
  

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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #24 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 1:54pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 7:35am:






That is the ideal.  How can tax-funded schools attract these teachers?


Mostly the problem is not being able to get rid of the ineffective teachers.
  

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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #25 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 1:57pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 7:35am:



To help you answer, keep in mind that almost all teachers have bachelors degrees and many have masters, but they are paid less than people who have sixty hours of college and then went to the police or firefighter academy.  Because of this, there are basically three types of teachers:

1)  Teachers who went to college and got a degree in the easiest major, which is education, or got a low GPA in another major and got certified because they couldn't find a job anywhere else.  2)  Teachers who have spouses with higher paying jobs who teach for pocket money and to enjoy summers and breaks with their kids, 3)  Teachers who teach because they have a passion for teaching and are willing to sacrifice money they could make elsewhere.  There is some overlap between 3) and 2), but they are few and far between.   
Study after study has shown that paying teachers more doesn't improve the quality of education they provide. A good case can also be made that teachers make much more per hour worked than many people with equivalent education and experience. In any case, they chose to be teachers.
  

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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #26 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 1:59pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 7:35am:




Yes, we need schools that recognize that some kids don't need to learn Pythagorean Theorem.   Some kids need job skills.  At least when the factory owners paid for schools for there future workers, those schools understood that.
Public schools did understand that in the era when I went to school... What happened? "Progressives" started telling everyone that every child must go to college and that to have children in vocational classes demeans them and makes them feel inferior thereby ruining their chances in life.
  

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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #27 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 2:03pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 7:50am:
Yeah, I know you want teachers unions to be the scapegoat for poor education in tax-funded schools.  That and the federal government who you only think should get involved if the local controllers want to segregate by race.

Teachers unions really have very little influence on how schools are run.  They spend a huge chunk of their time and money supporting the Democratic Party.  They don't influence the curriculum and they don't force schools to accept low-performing teachers.

The reason tax-funded schools don't get many good teachers is explained in the post above.





Teachers protected by unions are a problem. They are difficult to get rid of.

The Dept. of Education and Congress are a problem. They mandate what must be taught and what the specific age related results must be.

I don't know exactly who is responsible for children being taught collectivism and ant-American dogma, but it isn't local parents or private school teachers.
  

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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #28 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 2:05pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 7:50am:
It is either not being done or not being done effectively in most schools.  I often ask individual teachers, "what reward system do you have in place?" and the most common response is a blank look.  Sometimes I am pleasantly surprised, such as when I go into a classroom and the teacher has a candy jar prominently displayed on her desk.


Don't give my children candy. Evaluate what they do fairly and praise them when they make progress.
  

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Re: How Long will Kaz Last this Time? Join the Pool!
Reply #29 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 2:57pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 2:05pm:
Don't give my children candy. Evaluate what they do fairly and praise them when they make progress.


In a government school, you don't get to tell teachers that.  Not unless you have a note from a doctor saying that for health reasons, your child cannot eat candy.  Your word means nothing because the school is funded by taxes and attendance is mandatory.

You just pay up and send them your kids like a good little socialist.  That is the system you advocate we continue.


  

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