Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy? (Read 497 times)
Little Big Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5477
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Jan 8th, 2019 at 3:02pm
Print Post  
The answer to that depends largely, if not entirely, on how free the economy is.

In relatively free, and therefore booming, Houston, immigrants are a boon to our economy regardless of what kind of paperwork they filled out before they came here.

I know this will shock the statists on here that government paperwork is not the determining factor for whether a person is a net contributor to the economy.

In Houston, immigrants provide a source of labor sorely needed to support our massive growth.  They also are a large fraction of the entrepreneurs that sustain our innovation.

To solve the "illegal immigrant problem," we only need to make the rest of the country at least as libertarian as Houston.
  

Snarky no more!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 39985
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #1 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 4:47pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 3:02pm:
The answer to that depends largely, if not entirely, on how free the economy is.

In relatively free, and therefore booming, Houston, immigrants are a boon to our economy regardless of what kind of paperwork they filled out before they came here.

I know this will shock the statists on here that government paperwork is not the determining factor for whether a person is a net contributor to the economy.

In Houston, immigrants provide a source of labor sorely needed to support our massive growth.  They also are a large fraction of the entrepreneurs that sustain our innovation.

To solve the "illegal immigrant problem," we only need to make the rest of the country at least as libertarian as Houston. 
You have a good point.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9032
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #2 - Jan 8th, 2019 at 10:13pm
Print Post  
It helps, even in an unfree economy, simply because it is a step toward freedom.

It's possible for it to be less fair to people already living there, but that's hardly the issue.

If I cannot buy any hat except an orange one, and suddenly brown hats are legalised, that might not be fair to the guy making blue hats, but it is still more free than it was before.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 6892
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #3 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:40am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 10:13pm:
It helps, even in an unfree economy, simply because it is a step toward freedom.

It's possible for it to be less fair to people already living there, but that's hardly the issue.

If I cannot buy any hat except an orange one, and suddenly brown hats are legalised, that might not be fair to the guy making blue hats, but it is still more free than it was before.


I don't see what your analogy has to do with immigration.

Illegal immigration like everything has mixed results.  But those harmed by illegal aliens include:

1)  The poor who are competing with people who will work harder for lower wages and since they work illegally even have a tax benefit over them

2)  Victims of crime, particularly drug dealers and people who are victimized by criminals who walked across the border with no interest in a job

3)  Companies in industries who do not hire illegals but have to compete with people who do hire illegals as they are at a cost disadvantage

4)  Taxpayers who provide free education, welfare, prisons and services to low skilled, low contribution people and their kids.  The public in general paying for free medical care and for the damage caused by illegal drivers, etc.

No one benefits other than employers who hire illegal workers and people like Burnsred and Jeff who want to hire underage sex slaves because all other benefits would be achieved by legal immigration.  To be a benefit, it has to be something that isn't achieved by legal immigration anyway
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 39985
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #4 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:52am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Jan 8th, 2019 at 10:13pm:
It helps, even in an unfree economy, simply because it is a step toward freedom.

It's possible for it to be less fair to people already living there, but that's hardly the issue.

That it is seen as unfair to tax American citizens and legal immigrants to help illegal immigrants is exactly one of the points.

Certainly some illegal immigrants are more free in the U.S. than they were wherever they came from, others are held in detention and then deported.

The question raised was, do illegal immigrants overall help or hurt our economy? (And BTW, economists generally agree that immigration produces net gains for the economy.)

Here's a place to start the discussion based on facts-

https://www.cato.org/blog/fairs-fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-study-fatally-...

Here's another-

https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/working-paper-21-fix.pdf

Here's the conclusion of the second study-




"It is difficult to predict the impact of immigration on government budgets currently or in the future. Based on the few studies that have tried to systematically examine the impact on
government budgets, taking into account immigration’s impact on the size of the economy and pace of economic growth, as well as the impact of immigration on government budgets, the longitudinal and static studies reveal a very small net fiscal
impact clustered around zero (OECD
2013: 125)."
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Big Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5477
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #5 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 9:38am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:52am:
That it is seen as unfair to tax American citizens and legal immigrants to help illegal immigrants is exactly one of the points.

Certainly some illegal immigrants are more free in the U.S. than they were wherever they came from, others are held in detention and then deported.

The question raised was, do illegal immigrants overall help or hurt our economy? (And BTW, economists generally agree that immigration produces net gains for the economy.)

Here's a place to start the discussion based on facts-

https://www.cato.org/blog/fairs-fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-study-fatally-...

Here's another-

https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/working-paper-21-fix.pdf

Here's the conclusion of the second study-




"It is difficult to predict the impact of immigration on government budgets currently or in the future. Based on the few studies that have tried to systematically examine the impact on
government budgets, taking into account immigration’s impact on the size of the economy and pace of economic growth, as well as the impact of immigration on government budgets, the longitudinal and static studies reveal a very small net fiscal
impact clustered around zero (OECD
2013: 125)."


Jeff, I'm pleasantly surprised that you are not one of those, "send them dope dealers and rapists back home" types. 

I'm shifting my position here just in the lasts few days.  I used to say that ending welfare and opening the borders has to go hand in hand.  But, because of studies like that, and because, Oppo states, any step toward freedom is a positive one, and because of Sack's Razor (when in doubt about one choice or another choose the one with least government), I now think we should save our money and enjoy the benefits of a steady flow of hard-working immigrants.
  

Snarky no more!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9032
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #6 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 11:06am
Print Post  
kaz wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:40am:
I don't see what your analogy has to do with immigration.


That even if one party is disproportionately harmed by a step toward freedom, and even if that step toward freedom is so lopsided that it is clearly intended to harm one party to benefit another, it is still a step toward freedom.

George Soros wants to destroy the white race, and he'll bus immigrants anywhere they'll do that. But in the process, he's making leaps and bounds toward freedom. He's opening borders, which is a good thing. Let the native population of Britain die. No one cares. Freedom is the only objective worth discussing. Populations don't have rights; only individuals.

George Soros is a hero.

There are steps toward libertarianism that will never reasonably happen, but there are steps that will. It is our responsibility to support every possible deviation from Statism and conformity to freedom.

kaz wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:40am:
Illegal immigration like everything has mixed results.  But those harmed by illegal aliens include:

1)  The poor who are competing with people who will work harder for lower wages and since they work illegally even have a tax benefit over them


Then those poor should starve.

kaz wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:40am:
2)  Victims of crime, particularly drug dealers and people who are victimized by criminals who walked across the border with no interest in a job


A libertarian society is not concerned with how much crime there actually is, as long as rights are respected by government (whether that be by not having a government, or having a small government that respects rights).

We could eliminate all crime by keeping people in boxes apart from one another.

One good thing to admit is that the freer a society, the more crime there will be, because a tyrannical government goes to great pains to prevent crime, even if it will violate rights in the process.

Select freedom over safety.

kaz wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:40am:
3)  Companies in industries who do not hire illegals but have to compete with people who do hire illegals as they are at a cost disadvantage


Then they should hire illegals. This is basic free market stuff.

kaz wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:40am:
4)  Taxpayers who provide free education, welfare, prisons and services to low skilled, low contribution people and their kids.  The public in general paying for free medical care and for the damage caused by illegal drivers, etc.


I have no sympathy. These are things the government does. If these people won't rebel against their government, they deserve to be exploited by it.

Furthermore, many of these people are workers, and the lazy American worker really just needs to die off. He can't compete and he knows so, which is why he's generally against illegal immigration. It has nothing to do with welfare since immigrants are disproportionately working, and Americans are disproportionately on welfare.

kaz wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:40am:
No one benefits other than employers who hire illegal workers


The illegal workers benefit too, and the overall economy, since less taxes are paid and better workers are imported.

Most of the lazy working class of America needs to die off, so better workers can take their places.

You said it yourself, you get paid what you're worth. Importing better labour drives the worth of the lazy American worker down to nothing, as it should be. He can compete on the free market, or starve. This is the ideal.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Big Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5477
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #7 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 11:49am
Print Post  
kaz wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:40am:
I don't see what your analogy has to do with immigration.

Illegal immigration like everything has mixed results.  But those harmed by illegal aliens include:

1)  The poor who are competing with people who will work harder for lower wages and since they work illegally even have a tax benefit over them


Then the poor must learn to work harder for lower wages.  If they are native speakers of English and grew up in the United States, they have a huge competitive advantage over people with limited English and limited knowledge of local economics.  If they are being outworked, that is their  fault.

Quote:
2)  Victims of crime, particularly drug dealers and people who are victimized by criminals who walked across the border with no interest in a job


More people = more crime, fewer people = less crime.  If limiting the number of people in order to limit crime is the goal, then forced sterilization is a more efficient solution since it can be done in the public schools.

Quote:
3)  Companies in industries who do not hire illegals but have to compete with people who do hire illegals as they are at a cost disadvantage


Those companies should immediately begin hiring illegals so they can compete.  If they do not want to take the risks associated with hiring illegals, they are voluntarily giving companies that do an advantage.   If a tightrope walker who works without a net gets paid more than one who insists on safety, where's the unfairness?

Quote:
4)  Taxpayers who provide free education, welfare, prisons and services to low skilled, low contribution people and their kids.  The public in general paying for free medical care and for the damage caused by illegal drivers, etc.


The problem is not that illegals get these freebies, but that anyone does.  I believe Opposition made this point and I didn't buy it, but if enough illegals go on welfare, sooner or later the taxpayers will realize that these programs are non-sustainable. 

Quote:
No one benefits other than employers who hire illegal workers and people like Burnsred and Jeff who want to hire underage sex slaves because all other benefits would be achieved by legal immigration. 


Actually, I'm a gerontophile so all of my sex slaves are over 65.  I love to spank their wrinkled butts while they endorse their social security checks to me!

Quote:
To be a benefit, it has to be something that isn't achieved by legal immigration anyway


Most of the benefits of illegal immigration would also be benefits with open borders.  One important benefit, that I didn't mention is this:  illegal aliens simply ignore the law because obeying it would make their lives much worse and breaking it has little to no consequences.  I am starting to understand that libertarianism might only be brought about if more people do this.
  

Snarky no more!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 39985
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #8 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 2:35pm
Print Post  
kaz wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:40am:
No one benefits other than employers who hire illegal workers and people like Burnsred and Jeff who want to hire underage sex slaves because all other benefits would be achieved by legal immigration.
I read recently that the  legal admission of unaccompanied minors is actually human trafficking for the sex business that is being run by and serving the "elites" who condone the program.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 6892
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #9 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 6:41pm
Print Post  
Little Big Man wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 11:49am:
Actually, I'm a gerontophile so all of my sex slaves are over 65.  I love to spank their wrinkled butts while they endorse their social security checks to me!



Aw, a boy and his mom.  And grandma ...
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy