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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy? (Read 494 times)
Little Big Man
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Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #10 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 7:32pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
Aw, a boy and his mom.  And grandma ...


They're awesome.  But Great Gram Gram will always be my first and best.  I cried harder than anyone at her funeral.  Mainly because the undertaker refused my bribe to let me in to "say goodbye" the night before.


  

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Jeff
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Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #11 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 7:47pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 7:32pm:
They're awesome.  But Great Gram Gram will always be my first and best.  I cried harder than anyone at her funeral.  Mainly because the undertaker refused my bribe to let me in to "say goodbye" the night before.


Is this one of those times you mentioned where your brilliant reply stops the conversation?
  
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ahhell
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Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #12 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:42pm
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I don't know and I have my doubts regarding everyone that claims to actually know.  Any studies on the matter I've seen have clearly been by folks with a point to make.

My suspicion is that they don't really help the economy. 


Con: They primarily drive down wages for lower skilled workers and make nearly impossible for teenagers to get work. 
Pro:  This also drives down prices.

They're contributions to the tax base are mixed and nearly impossible to figure. 

Pro:They either use fraudulent ID and SS numbers or
Con: work under the table so don't pay in at all.

Con: They likely are a drain on the social safety net/welfare state.  Relying more on emergency rooms than the rest of us for obvious reasons. 


Pro: they have strong motives to not commit other crimes, its probably true that they are therefore more law abiding then citizens but probably not non-citizen legal immigrants that are also incentivized to not commit crime.

Con:  They are another source of income to criminals thus expanding the wealth, power, and influence of criminal organizations.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #13 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 4:47pm
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ahhell wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:42pm:
I don't know and I have my doubts regarding everyone that claims to actually know...
My suspicion is that they don't really help the economy...

I don't know either, but I'd wager that, everything considered, illegals hurt the economy.

I say this only because a large percentage of their earnings are sent home to other countries. These earnings never make it into our economy. 

Monies diverted to other countries only hurts the US economy.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #14 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 5:03pm
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ahhell wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:42pm:
I don't know and I have my doubts regarding everyone that claims to actually know.  Any studies on the matter I've seen have clearly been by folks with a point to make.

My suspicion is that they don't really help the economy. 
Right, the good folks at at the Cato Institute and the Reason Foundation want to make the point that immigration is a net benefit to our economy, so they study the matter and consult lots of published opinions by reputable economists.

The end result is that they can say that the reality is that immigration is a net benefit to our economy, which is way better than you uninformed suspicions.

What studies have you seen?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #15 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 5:07pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 4:47pm:
I don't know either, but I'd wager that, everything considered, illegals hurt the economy.

Your key words were "I don't know".

That makes your opinion uninformed and not very valuable.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #16 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 5:11pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 4:47pm:
I say this only because a large percentage of their earnings are sent home to other countries. These earnings never make it in our economy. 

Do you not understand markets?

People contribute to economies by participating in them. Economies do well when lots of people are free to participate.

It's when too many people aren't participating in economies that economies go bad.


  
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ahhell
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Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #17 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 5:48pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 5:03pm:
Right, the good folks at at the Cato Institute and the Reason Foundation want to make the point that immigration is a net benefit to our economy, so they study the matter and consult lots of published opinions by reputable economists.

The end result is that they can say that the reality is that immigration is a net benefit to our economy, which is way better than you uninformed suspicions.

What studies have you seen?

The question is about illegal immigration not immigration generally, Cato and Reason clearly come to the subject expecting to find that its good for the economy.  I have no doubt that they have folks who are better informed on the subject than I but there are also folks better informed on the subject than I who are convinced illegal immigrants are a drain on society. 

https://cis.org/Immigrants-United-States-2010#execsum

A.  Not all immigrants are the same.
B.  Illegal immigrants are generally of lower socio economic status than legal, it is highly probably their impact on the economy will not be the same as the legal immigrants.

At best they can say is that given the their assumptions and the variables they studied, immigration seems to be a net positive.  They can not say for certain that is the reality.  Reality especially economic reality is not conducive to certainty. 

You may be right about the effects of immigration by you are wrong to express that level of certainty. 

  
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kaz
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Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #18 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 5:55pm
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ahhell wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 3:42pm:
I don't know and I have my doubts regarding everyone that claims to actually know.  Any studies on the matter I've seen have clearly been by folks with a point to make.

My suspicion is that they don't really help the economy. 


Con: They primarily drive down wages for lower skilled workers and make nearly impossible for teenagers to get work. 
Pro:  This also drives down prices.

They're contributions to the tax base are mixed and nearly impossible to figure. 

Pro:They either use fraudulent ID and SS numbers or
Con: work under the table so don't pay in at all.

Con: They likely are a drain on the social safety net/welfare state.  Relying more on emergency rooms than the rest of us for obvious reasons. 


Pro: they have strong motives to not commit other crimes, its probably true that they are therefore more law abiding then citizens but probably not non-citizen legal immigrants that are also incentivized to not commit crime.

Con:  They are another source of income to criminals thus expanding the wealth, power, and influence of criminal organizations.


Agreed, but here's what's wrong with your argument.  All the positives could be solved with legal immigration.

The choice isn't between illegal and no immigration, it's between illegal and legal.  We could let in a lot more legal if we weren't letting in so many illegals
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Little Big Man
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Re: Does Illegal Immigration Help or Hurt the Economy?
Reply #19 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 6:08pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 10th, 2019 at 5:55pm:
Agreed, but here's what's wrong with your argument.  All the positives could be solved with legal immigration.


The fact that illegal aliens work cheaper and make inexpensive goods and services available would not be solved by legal immigration.  Not assuming that the legal immigrants would abide by our minimum wage laws.

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The choice isn't between illegal and no immigration, it's between illegal and legal.  We could let in a lot more legal if we weren't letting in so many illegals


Right, but at the cost of an increase in government necessary to enforce the border.  Now, if you were to argue that we could pull troops out of the Middle East, Europe, Asia and Africa to use them on the border, that would be a net savings.

But now that I  write that, having so many soldiers in the U.S. presents its own problems.  Authoritarian governments like to have a lot of firepower readily available to control the population.  That's why they were so quick to use 9/11 as an excuse to militarize police and form a federal police force.  J. Edgar crappity smacking Hoover thought that a federal police force was too authoritarian for America, yet here we are meekly accepting it.

 

But we still know that the economy benefits from freedom and a closed border is not an example of that.
  

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