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Poll closed Question: Should I Continue with the LBM Persona, or Back to Sack?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Your new persona a breath of fresh air.    
  3 (75.0%)
crappity smack that! Bring back the Sack!    
  1 (25.0%)




Total votes: 4
« Last Modified by: Little Big Man on: Jan 31st, 2019 at 9:10am »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me? (Read 1364 times)
kaz
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #30 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:38am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 9:59pm:
So as long as the people consent to it, and the Constitution says its okay, the government can do anything?


You have this thing where you either go to hyperbolic specificity or vagueness beyond meaning.

If the people consent, then the government is legitimate.  Legitimate means that it is acting under the authority of the people.

That does not mean that what the people want is just, good or proper.  Only that the government is acting on their authority.

And I know how terrible your memory is, so again, consent is not a majority vote.  It means there is no significant opposition sufficient to threaten the government's actions.  People do not in this country consent to redistribution of wealth, that is tyranny of the majority.  It is tearing us apart.  People do consent to roads.  Everyone consents to that.  Even burnsred who admits using roads even though it makes him a welfare queen
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Jeff
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #31 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:38am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 9:59pm:
So as long as the people consent to it, and the Constitution says its okay, the government can do anything?
Once again, the government can only do things it is specifically empowered to do, and it is required to stay within the limits imposed on accomplishing those things.

The people consented to the system of government created by the Constitution and to the grant of the enumerated powers described in the Constitution so long as the limits are respected.

It is not a matter of the people consenting to each individual law enacted by Congress, and Congress may not "do anything" just because a majority of people currently think it's a grand idea. That would be democracy, law by the current mad fad capturing people's imaginations.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #32 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:42am
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kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:38am:
You have this thing where you either go to hyperbolic specificity or vagueness beyond meaning.

If the people consent, then the government is legitimate.  Legitimate means that it is acting under the authority of the people.

That does not mean that what the people want is just, good or proper.  Only that the government is acting on their authority.

And I know how terrible your memory is, so again, consent is not a majority vote.  It means there is no significant opposition sufficient to threaten the government's actions.  People do not in this country consent to redistribution of wealth, that is tyranny of the majority.  It is tearing us apart.  People do consent to roads.  Everyone consents to that.  Even burnsred who admits using roads even though it makes him a welfare queen
You said it better than I did, thanks.

Here's a quick read where Trump mentions that America will never be socialist, and 76% of the audience approves of his message:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/02/05/trump_america_will_never_be_a...
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #33 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 9:47pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:38am:
Once again, the government can only do things it is specifically empowered to do,


That's why I asked you:

The Opposition wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 9:59pm:
So as long as the people consent to it, and the Constitution says its okay, the government can do anything?


kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:38am:
You have this thing where you either go to hyperbolic specificity or vagueness beyond meaning.


No, you just define my responses that way, so you don't have to answer simple questions.

kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:38am:
If the people consent, then the government is legitimate.  Legitimate means that it is acting under the authority of the people.

That does not mean that what the people want is just, good or proper.  Only that the government is acting on their authority.

And I know how terrible your memory is, so again, consent is not a majority vote.  It means there is no significant opposition sufficient to threaten the government's actions.  People do not in this country consent to redistribution of wealth, that is tyranny of the majority.  It is tearing us apart.  People do consent to roads.  Everyone consents to that.  Even burnsred who admits using roads even though it makes him a welfare queen


Just out of curiosity, what if more people wanted redistribution of wealth than consented to roads?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #34 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 6:43am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 9:47pm:
No, you just define my responses that way, so you don't have to answer simple questions.


You mean simpleton questions where I have to ask what they hell you're talking about


The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 9:47pm:
Just out of curiosity, what if more people wanted redistribution of wealth than consented to roads?


From a practical measure, that isn't really possible.  If you don't have roads then you can't redistribute wealth.

But from a legitimacy standpoint, I don't know what was clear about my answer.  A government that is acting with the consent of the governed is legitimate, which just means it's acting with the consent of the governed.

Having spent so much time in Europe, I think they do have consent of the governed over there to redistribute wealth.  It's a small, non-violent, virtually silent percent indeed who object.  We're headed down the same path.

I'm just hoping to put it off past my lifetime.  I feel bad for my kids, but I don't see how we put it off past theirs.  The barbarians are at the gate and growing in their greedy numbers
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Jeff
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #35 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 7:13am
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kaz wrote on Feb 7th, 2019 at 6:43am:
Having spent so much time in Europe, I think they do have consent of the governed over there to redistribute wealth.  It's a small, non-violent, virtually silent percent indeed who object.  We're headed down the same path.

What they actually have in Europe is mostly governments that are not limited, or governments that are mostly not limited.

I'm not sure you can say that the people of various European countries have actually consented to unlimited governments.

Most likely they believe that their governments are limited because they get to elect representatives and they believe the  representatives will only do what "the will of the people" allows, which is in fact anything at all.

They have been sold on the idea that democracy limits government to carrying out the "will of the people"and allows government to only do "good" things, because why would "the people" ever want to do "bad" things, and why would elected representatives ever do anything that wasn't wise and good?

As many Americans do, they misunderstand the idea of limiting governments (as well as the meaning of consent, which is actually consent to a form of government with a specified purpose)  and fantasize that unlimited governments will do good things for everyone. Cheesy
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #36 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 10:40am
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kaz wrote on Feb 7th, 2019 at 6:43am:
You mean simpleton questions where I have to ask what they hell you're talking about


You don't have to ask, you understand the specific scenarios and the broad questions. You just object to answering either.

kaz wrote on Feb 7th, 2019 at 6:43am:
From a practical measure, that isn't really possible.  If you don't have roads then you can't redistribute wealth.

But from a legitimacy standpoint, I don't know what was clear about my answer.  A government that is acting with the consent of the governed is legitimate, which just means it's acting with the consent of the governed.

Having spent so much time in Europe, I think they do have consent of the governed over there to redistribute wealth.  It's a small, non-violent, virtually silent percent indeed who object.  We're headed down the same path.

I'm just hoping to put it off past my lifetime.  I feel bad for my kids, but I don't see how we put it off past theirs.  The barbarians are at the gate and growing in their greedy numbers


And isn't is sad that government legitimacy works like this? If you have a working village of 20 people and an elder beloved by all except one, that one person can just import 400 new people who agree with him and now he gets his way.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Little Big Man
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #37 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 12:00pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 7th, 2019 at 7:13am:
What they actually have in Europe is mostly governments that are not limited, or governments that are mostly not limited.

I'm not sure you can say that the people of various European countries have actually consented to unlimited governments.

Most likely they believe that their governments are limited because they get to elect representatives and they believe the  representatives will only do what "the will of the people" allows, which is in fact anything at all.

They have been sold on the idea that democracy limits government to carrying out the "will of the people"and allows government to only do "good" things, because why would "the people" ever want to do "bad" things, and why would elected representatives ever do anything that wasn't wise and good?

As many Americans do, they misunderstand the idea of limiting governments (as well as the meaning of consent, which is actually consent to a form of government with a specified purpose)  and fantasize that unlimited governments will do good things for everyone. Cheesy


Since there is no way to know whether people are consenting or not consenting to any particular form of government, people often assume that if they themselves consent to their current government, so does everyone else.

Absent a way to determine the presence or absence of consent, "consent" will always be hypothetical.

  

Snarky no more!
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Jeff
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #38 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 1:38pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 7th, 2019 at 10:40am:
And isn't is sad that government legitimacy works like this? If you have a working village of 20 people and an elder beloved by all except one, that one person can just import 400 new people who agree with him and now he gets his way.
Where could he possibly find that many people who wanted to move into his crappy village with somebody like Young Kim in charge?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #39 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 1:43pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 7th, 2019 at 12:00pm:
Since there is no way to know whether people are consenting or not consenting to any particular form of government, people often assume that if they themselves consent to their current government, so does everyone else.

Absent a way to determine the presence or absence of consent, "consent" will always be hypothetical.

Luckily, when people in the U.S. want to change the form of government that's been consented to, or alter the terms of the granted powers or assigned responsibilities, they can.

It's not easy to do, by intent.

You would't want something like a panel of nine people to arbitrarily alter the government charter on their own. That would be tyrannical.

Even allowing a parliament to alter the rules that govern the parliament is tyrannical. That's the basic problem I see with parliamentary government.
  

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