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Poll closed Question: Should I Continue with the LBM Persona, or Back to Sack?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Your new persona a breath of fresh air.    
  3 (75.0%)
crappity smack that! Bring back the Sack!    
  1 (25.0%)




Total votes: 4
« Last Modified by: Little Big Man on: Jan 31st, 2019 at 9:10am »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me? (Read 1436 times)
Jeff
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #50 - Feb 8th, 2019 at 3:44pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 8th, 2019 at 2:43pm:
What percent do you insist on On which percent do you insist?

You're the one insisting on percentages.

What are you really, a technocrat in some minor bureaucracy? Cry
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #51 - Feb 8th, 2019 at 7:31pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 8th, 2019 at 3:44pm:
You're the one insisting on percentages.

What are you really, a technocrat in some minor bureaucracy? Cry


There is no percentage because there is no choice.  Consent is entirely hypothetical and it has never been measured adequately.

The adoption of the constitution that you constantly cite as the consent that continues to this day was only voted on by representatives of about twenty percent of "the people" and even at that, it wasn't a unanimous by that twenty percent.  So, maybe eleven percent of adults voted for representatives who voted to ratify?  You claim that binds all subsequent generations who need not be ask if they consent?

Even back in the original constitution days, it was state governments who consented, not "the people."   
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #52 - Feb 8th, 2019 at 9:29pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 8th, 2019 at 12:52pm:
What will be in it to start off?

The idea that you can create a perfect constitution that will never need any alteration sounds farfetched. It's not a good idea.


If you can't create a perfect constitution, you can't create a perfect constitution by changing the existing constitution.

/logic

Anyway, I never said it doesn't need alteration. I said that if you want the alteration, rebel. That should be what's necessary to change it: Overthrow it and make a new one.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #53 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:14am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 8th, 2019 at 7:31pm:
There is no percentage because there is no choice.  Consent is entirely hypothetical and it has never been measured adequately.

The adoption of the constitution that you constantly cite as the consent that continues to this day was only voted on by representatives of about twenty percent of "the people" and even at that, it wasn't a unanimous by that twenty percent.  So, maybe eleven percent of adults voted for representatives who voted to ratify?  You claim that binds all subsequent generations who need not be ask if they consent?

Even back in the original constitution days, it was state governments who consented, not "the people."   
The idea was to create a good government that would protect people's liberty and property. That would never have happened if 100% of the adults in America had to agree that the form of government and all its proposed specifics met with their approval.

I know that's the way you think it should have gone... But you'd still have to figure a way to get rid of whatever state and local government had jurisdiction where you lived, and as you know, some of the state governments had laws protecting the institution of slavery. It's a shame the creation of the U.S. couldn't eliminate slavery in America at the stroke of a pen, but it did eventually. Perhaps without the consent of the people to the Constitution, you be living in a state that still protected slavery. Cry
  

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Jeff
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #54 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:16am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 8th, 2019 at 9:29pm:
If you can't create a perfect constitution, you can't create a perfect constitution by changing the existing constitution.

/logic

Anyway, I never said it doesn't need alteration. I said that if you want the alteration, rebel. That should be what's necessary to change it: Overthrow it and make a new one.
Libertarians know about ideals and dreams of perfection, but it's the "progressives" who actually believe they can create it.

A "perfect" constitution is not the goal, a better constitution is.

It's sad that you would prefer armed rebellion to amendment by legal means. You must be crazy!
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #55 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:34am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:14am:
The idea was to create a good government that would protect people's liberty and property. That would never have happened if 100% of the adults in America had to agree that the form of government and all its proposed specifics met with their approval.

I know that's the way you think it should have gone... But you'd still have to figure a way to get rid of whatever state and local government had jurisdiction where you lived, and as you know, some of the state governments had laws protecting the institution of slavery. It's a shame the creation of the U.S. couldn't eliminate slavery in America at the stroke of a pen, but it did eventually. Perhaps without the consent of the people to the Constitution, you be living in a state that still protected slavery. Cry


Which I would not be consenting to either. 

You seem to be saying that government does so many awesome things for our own good, that it needn't bother with consent.

You're right that we could never get one hundred percent consent.  If the founders had let blacks and women vote, no telling what kind of government the U.S. would have had.  It might have even banned slavery which you claim would have been a disaster for the slaves.  Even then there would not have been unanimous consent, just that the majority of adults would have been allowed to expres consent or non-consent.

My point is not that we have to have one hundred percent to have consent.  My point is that consent isn't a valid metric when the government uses force against citizens who are not aggressing against others.  If government provided protection from aggression and did not force people to pay for it, consent is a moot point. 

The people who paid would be expressing their consent.  The people who didn't pay would neither be consenting nor expressing non-consent.*  The people who aggressed against others and were stopped by the government would not be consenting, but their consent is not needed since the government action is self-defense by proxy.

*It's as if I walk by a Boeing Aircraft plant and there's an armed guard on duty.  Did I consent to that?  No, but my consent is not needed.  Now, if the guard attempts to force me to pay for his services because everyone benefits when Boeing is protected from the caliphates or whoever, I don't consent to that.  Even if it's for everyone's own good.

  

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Jeff
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #56 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:47am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:34am:
Which I would not be consenting to either. 


Right, you're an anarchist, the Communist's favorite kind of useful idiot.
  

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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #57 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:53am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:47am:
Right, you're an anarchist, the Communist's favorite kind of useful idiot.


So if I wouldn't consent to a government that allows slavery to continue into the twenty-first century, I'm a useful idiot for communists?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #58 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 9:19am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:53am:
So if I wouldn't consent to a government that allows slavery to continue into the twenty-first century, I'm a useful idiot for communists?
If you imagine your refusal to consent would have changed the minds of the slavers in charge of the government of South Carolina, I'd say you're some kind of idiot. Kiss
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Take the Poll. Nice me or Jerk Me?
Reply #59 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 9:30am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 9th, 2019 at 9:19am:
If you imagine your refusal to consent would have changed the minds of the slavers in charge of the government of South Carolina, I'd say you're some kind of idiot. Kiss


It isn't about my imagination of what slavers would do.  I know that my refusal to consent to a government that protects slavery, like the one ordained and established by "we the people," wouldn't stop slavery.   That would defeat the purpose.  Such a government is clearly formed to protect the interests of slavers, not abolitionists. 

I wouldn't consent anyway, for the sake of my own moral code.

If that makes me an idiot, so be it.  I guess the people that gleefully voted to protect slavery, and make slaves three fifths persons were the geniuses of the time?
  

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