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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers (Read 1004 times)
Little Big Man
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #20 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 7:46am
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Little Big Man wrote yesterday at 10:18pm:
Quote:
Sure, there is.  He can buy another brand of milk.

How much tolerance are we talking here before it crosses the line into criminal fraud?  If a consumer finds out that his half gallon of Milky Maid Milk is actually only 63 ounces, he should be able to call the feds for an investigation?  How many tax dollars should be spent on that investigation and prosecution?

A for profit consumer researcher would be glad to hear that information and he could do a story that would make money while exposing Milky Maid for the short milkers that they are.


kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:41am:
He's once, twice, three times a troll ...


Kaz, remember when you said that if you responded to a perfectly reasonable post by me with nothing but an insult, that I could ask you why and you would answer truthfully and maturely?

This is one of those times.

Why did  you respond to a reasonable post with nothing more than an insult?

Thank you.

  

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Jeff
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #21 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:10am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 10:18pm:
Sure, there is.  He can buy another brand of milk. 

How much tolerance are we talking here before it crosses the line into criminal fraud?  If a consumer finds out that his half gallon of Milky Maid Milk is actually only 63 ounces, he should be able to call the feds for an investigation?  How many tax dollars should be spent on that investigation and prosecution?

A for profit consumer researcher would be glad to hear that information and he could do a story that would make money while exposing Milky Maid for the short milkers that they are. 

 
Do you have proof that all of the half gallons of Milky Maid Milk are short an ounce?

If you are the owner of a competing dairy, and you can gather enough evidence, it might be worth it to file a claim in small claims court. Your business and your potential profits are being lost to you because Milky Maid is cheating the milk customers in your area. Angry

In the real world, taking the milk back to the grocery you bought it from will get you a replacement 1/2 gal. of milk for free, and if you can prove to the grocer that Milky Maid is shorting all his customers, he'll deal with Milky Maid for you, or maybe stop selling their milk in his store.
  

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kaz
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #22 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:42am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 7:46am:
Little Big Man wrote yesterday at 10:18pm:



Kaz, remember when you said that if you responded to a perfectly reasonable post by me with nothing but an insult, that I could ask you why and you would answer truthfully and maturely?

This is one of those times.

Why did  you respond to a reasonable post with nothing more than an insult?

Thank you.



I said I had no problem with just requiring honest disclosure about volume, and you started talking about criminal fraud and federal investigations, which is an absurd leap.  It's known as hyperbole.

Companies who aren't honest just get a fine, it's not criminal.  And no one is getting a fine for putting in 63 instead of 64 ounces of milk, much less getting targeted for a "criminal" investigation.  You like to make absurd leaps to get a reaction.  By definition trolling.

Do you know the difference between criminal and civil? 

That was the trolling part.  Another point I'm not saying is trolling is your absurd statement that it's cheaper for private entities to set up consumer monitoring organizations to see if there are 64 rather than 63 ounces and everyone to figure out which are the good ones rather than government just requiring accurate volume disclosure.

To argue that government regulating what you can buy is clearly reducing your liberty.

You're arguing that knowing more about what you buy reduces your liberty, which is ridiculous
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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ahhell
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #23 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 10:41am
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Man, this is why libertarians are laughed at.  Saying that the free market should determine what happens to a company that mislabels their products is akin to saying, fraud shouldn't be illegal, the free market should drive the frauds out of business.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #24 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 10:43am
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ahhell wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 10:41am:
Man, this is why libertarians are laughed at.  Saying that the free market should determine what happens to a company that mislabels their products is akin to saying, fraud shouldn't be illegal, the free market should drive the frauds out of business. 


I see nothing inconsistent with believing this if you believe the free market works for driving any other unscrupulous business practice out of business.

We must already buy one container of chocolates to discover whether the chocolates taste bad. If they're so disgusting they're inedible, that's not different than a note being inside instead of any chocolates at all, that says, "Haha sucker you got scammed!"

But you're correct that libertarians get put down because of this, mainly because most people are skeptical of the free market working this well against deception. If the deceivers are that good, they can probably find a way to deceive again. If the victim would outsmart the deceiver, then he would be the one with the chocolate company.

kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:46am:
Your schizophrenia aside, civil law is amazing for capitalism.  People don't realize how much you can hold big companies accountable by suing them in civil court for screwing you.  The cost to them to fight it is many times for corporate lawyers what it takes just to pay you.


...which is still true when someone is suing you, and you've done that person no wrong.

kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:46am:
In my graphic design business, an out of area large business tried to screw me.  They ordered $800 in graphic designs and ignored the invoices completely.  I took them to civil court.  Took me about 2 hours work to file a small claims court case.  I was paid for both the work and my filing fees without more adieu.  Then since I knew the process, my customer service trying to collect deadbeat invoices successfully told non-payers we would just take them to small claims court, and it worked.


They were banking on you not being willing to do this.

In this case it worked out, and as I've said I now agree with civil law. I used to have problems with it. I no longer do.

...which is why this is the proper venue for someone shorting you an ounce of milk.

Let civil courts handle it. It shouldn't be a crime.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #25 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 11:05am
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ahhell wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 10:41am:
Man, this is why libertarians are laughed at.  Saying that the free market should determine what happens to a company that mislabels their products is akin to saying, fraud shouldn't be illegal, the free market should drive the frauds out of business. 
Having a free market and easy communications can help prevent many kinds of fraud, but fraudsters are tricky so it's necessary to punish them when you can catch them.
  

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Jeff
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #26 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 11:09am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 10:43am:
Let civil courts handle it. It shouldn't be a crime.
Exactly, there's no sense criminalizing anything that can be handled as a tort...

Fraud however is a statutory crime because it's theft.

Refer to a dictionary to learn the difference between a tort and a crime.

  

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Little Big Man
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #27 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 12:39pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:42am:
I said I had no problem with just requiring honest disclosure about volume, and you started talking about criminal fraud and federal investigations, which is an absurd leap.  It's known as hyperbole.

Companies who aren't honest just get a fine, it's not criminal.  And no one is getting a fine for putting in 63 instead of 64 ounces of milk, much less getting targeted for a "criminal" investigation.  You like to make absurd leaps to get a reaction.  By definition trolling.


Ok, I see your misunderstanding.  No, I ask for specifics instead of vague generalities because I want you to think through what your ideas about governing would look like.  Actually, what they do look like because government is currently run the way you want it to be.

Weights and measures are currently determined by the federal government and there is a federal agency dedicated exactly to things like making sure a half gallon of milk is exactly 64 standard ounces.  Personally, I think that doesn't add nearly enough value to our lives to justify the expense of maintaining that bureaucracy. 

Quote:
Do you know the difference between criminal and civil? 


Yes, civil penalties are most often for violating regulations set by unelected bureaucrats.  Also there is much less opportunity for due process for civil penalties.  Those are good things?

Quote:


That was the trolling part.  Another point I'm not saying is trolling is your absurd statement that it's cheaper for private entities to set up consumer monitoring organizations to see if there are 64 rather than 63 ounces and everyone to figure out which are the good ones rather than government just requiring accurate volume disclosure


But how much tax money do you want to see spent on "just requiring" accurate volume disclosure?  I'm guessing that if this were not a libertarian forum, your answer would be, 'whatever it takes.' 
  

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Jeff
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #28 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 3:21pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 12:39pm:
Weights and measures are currently determined by the federal government and there is a federal agency dedicated exactly to things like making sure a half gallon of milk is exactly 64 standard ounces.  Personally, I think that doesn't add nearly enough value to our lives to justify the expense of maintaining that bureaucracy. 
Standardized weights and measures make manufacturing and commerce incredibly much easier, you just don't know enough about manufacturing and commerce to understand how large the contribution is.
  

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Jeff
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #29 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 3:25pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 12:39pm:
But how much tax money do you want to see spent on "just requiring" accurate volume disclosure?
It costs almost nothing as far as taxpayers are concerned.

Companies have to spend a little money on labels and make sure they are providing full accurate measure of whatever they are selling (those costs are passed on to consumers, who want to know those things anyway) and it doesn't cost much to fine some company for cheating, or it shouldn't anyway.
  

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