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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers (Read 467 times)
kaz
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #30 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 5:16pm
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ahhell wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 10:41am:
Man, this is why libertarians are laughed at.  Saying that the free market should determine what happens to a company that mislabels their products is akin to saying, fraud shouldn't be illegal, the free market should drive the frauds out of business. 


Agreed.  I don't have a legal issue with companies that sell a third of a box of cereal if the volume is listed correctly on the box.  But saying accurately how much milk is in the container is bad? 

Furthermore, there are so many such more important fights to have.  Libertarians constantly go to theoretical purity while missing the bloodbath over our liberty in front of them
  

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kaz
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #31 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 5:18pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 12:39pm:
Ok, I see your misunderstanding.  No, I ask for specifics instead of vague generalities because I want you to think through what your ideas about governing would look like.  Actually, what they do look like because government is currently run the way you want it to be


And now for today's quiz.  Can you find the trolling in this paragraph???

Fvck you, stupid lying bitch
  

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Jeff
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #32 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 5:59pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 5:16pm:
Agreed.  I don't have a legal issue with companies that sell a third of a box of cereal if the volume is listed correctly on the box.  But saying accurately how much milk is in the container is bad? 

Furthermore, there are so many such more important fights to have.  Libertarians constantly go to theoretical purity while missing the bloodbath over our liberty in front of them
The ideas of fraud and theft relate directly to property rights. That's why libertarians think they are important issues.
  
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Jeff
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #33 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:01pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 5:18pm:
And now for today's quiz.  Can you find the trolling in this paragraph???

Fvck you, stupid lying bitch
What do you call this most recent post of yours? Educational?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #34 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 9:41pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 11:09am:
Exactly, there's no sense criminalizing anything that can be handled as a tort...

Fraud however is a statutory crime because it's theft.

Refer to a dictionary to learn the difference between a tort and a crime.


Refer to a dictionary to see that fraud and theft are defined separately.

Theft is involuntary taking. In fraud, you voluntarily put your dollars in the fraudster's hand.

Huge difference.

But I didn't even say fraud wasn't a crime. I said it shouldn't be. But you can only win by saying, "buy a dictionary" and not addressing the issue so that's what you do.

Someone shorted you half an ounce of milk? Sue them. I think that's the better solution.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #35 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 6:46am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 9:41pm:
Refer to a dictionary to see that fraud and theft are defined separately.

Theft is involuntary taking. In fraud, you voluntarily put your dollars in the fraudster's hand.

Huge difference.

Different ways of stealing are still stealing.

People who are defrauded out of things don't in fact "give" them to the people committing the fraud. That would be a gift.

What happens voluntarily is that people tender money or goods or services under an agreement that they will receive some specified thing in return. That is not "giving", it's part of an agreed to exchange.

When the promised thing is not turned over to them, they lose, they are cheated, fraud has occurred, they've been robbed.
  
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Jeff
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #36 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 6:49am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 9:41pm:
But I didn't even say fraud wasn't a crime. I said it shouldn't be.
It's a form of theft.

The only reason I can imagine why you think it shouldn't be a crime is because you are defrauding people and hope if you get caught you won't be prosecuted.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #37 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 11:04am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 7th, 2019 at 6:46am:
What happens voluntarily is that people tender money or goods or services under an agreement that they will receive some specified thing in return. That is not "giving", it's part of an agreed to exchange.

When the promised thing is not turned over to them, they lose, they are cheated, fraud has occurred, they've been robbed.


You need to read. Not all these agreements are valid; only those involving transfer of property.

https://mises.org/library/property-rights-and-theory-contracts

Apply this article's standard to property the fraudster doesn't even have to transfer, and see what you come up with.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #38 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 1:18pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 7th, 2019 at 11:04am:
You need to read. Not all these agreements are valid; only those involving transfer of property.

https://mises.org/library/property-rights-and-theory-contracts

Apply this article's standard to property the fraudster doesn't even have to transfer, and see what you come up with.
That's often the problem, that somebody promises to give you something in return for what you give them, and then they don't. There are all sorts of ways to cheat people and steal from them. Fraud is one. It's a crime because it's theft.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: California Fines ghirardelli chocolate makers
Reply #39 - Feb 8th, 2019 at 7:39am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 7th, 2019 at 1:18pm:
That's often the problem, that somebody promises to give you something in return for what you give them, and then they don't. There are all sorts of ways to cheat people and steal from them. Fraud is one. It's a crime because it's theft.


It's very common for government to take money from taxpayers and use it for a different purpose, often a nearly opposite purpose, from that which they promised to use it.

What would you call that crime?  Or is it a crime at all?


  

Snarky no more!
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