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Jeff
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #10 - Feb 5th, 2019 at 8:07pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 8:04pm:
Why wouldn't you agree?  If it's not theft, what is it?

Can you change a five? Thanks.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #11 - Feb 5th, 2019 at 8:23pm
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Little Big Man wrote Today at 8:04pm:
Quote:
Why wouldn't you agree?  If it's not theft, what is it?


Jeff wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 8:07pm:
Can you change a five? Thanks.


"Oooh, I need my ones.  Sorry . . . "

Now, is it theft if you make the switch?

  

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The Opposition
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #12 - Feb 5th, 2019 at 10:16pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 4:55pm:
A guy needs a dollar bill for the coke machine but he only has a fiver.  He passes by a tip jar and sees many dollar bills.  He puts in his fiver and takes out five ones.  The guy who gets tips isn’t looking.

Is that theft?

Why or why not?


I would say almost certainly no because money is fungible.

But if, for any reason, anyone cared, then it would be theft. There's just an overwhelmingly good assumption that they wouldn't.

Anything that destroys the fungibility of the money also destroys this assumption. Let me give you another example.

At the table in the back sits a mother with her daughter. The daughter is crying because she wanted a Franklin Roosevelt golden presidential $1 and she doesn't have one. The child is inconsolable.

You notice that one of the dollars in the tip jar is the golden $1 the child wants, so you make the switch, then offer to sell the golden dollar to the mother for $5. She accepts, of course.

You've performed an act that hinges on destroying the fungibility of the dollars (one was exchanged for five) so you destroyed the assumption that the conclusion of non-theft rested upon.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Little Big Man
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #13 - Feb 5th, 2019 at 10:27pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 10:16pm:
I would say almost certainly no because money is fungible.

But if, for any reason, anyone cared, then it would be theft. There's just an overwhelmingly good assumption that they wouldn't.

Anything that destroys the fungibility of the money also destroys this assumption. Let me give you another example.

At the table in the back sits a mother with her daughter. The daughter is crying because she wanted a Franklin Roosevelt golden presidential $1 and she doesn't have one. The child is inconsolable.

You notice that one of the dollars in the tip jar is the golden $1 the child wants, so you make the switch, then offer to sell the golden dollar to the mother for $5. She accepts, of course.

You've performed an act that hinges on destroying the fungibility of the dollars (one was exchanged for five) so you destroyed the assumption that the conclusion of non-theft rested upon.


Yes, I thought about setting this scenario in 1965 when we were getting away from real silver quarters and legally the new quarters were worth as much as the old.

I would argue that the bill switcher himself doesn't see the money as fungible.  The value of paper money hinges on its acceptance and he is specifically switching money that will not be accepted by the seller (represented by the coke machine) for money that will be accepted by the seller.  So the ones are marginally more valuable.

Bottom line, though, is I don't think fungible or not fungible makes any difference.  Tip jar guy has the right to keep or trade his money.  A forced "trade" is no trade at all.  It's just stealing at the same time as giving.
  

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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #14 - Feb 5th, 2019 at 10:51pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 10:16pm:
I would say almost certainly no because money is fungible.


So is aluminum.

But maybe the tip-jar owner didn't want a 28-pound bag of empty aluminum soda cans.
  
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #15 - Feb 5th, 2019 at 11:05pm
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Honestly I think this is a case of calling a tail a leg not making it one.

The definition of fungible is what implies this can be done.

But it can't be done, because even if you put able to be exchanged in the definition, then define money as that, it doesn't change the fact that it's taking without permission.

I still stand by my case that if the owner of the jar doesn't care, it's not theft. If he estimates he has the same thing, and he does have the same thing, no theft.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #16 - Feb 5th, 2019 at 11:47pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 11:05pm:
I still stand by my case that if the owner of the jar doesn't care, it's not theft. If he estimates he has the same thing, and he does have the same thing, no theft.

And you're STILL wrong.

Because there's always the possibility that the tip-jar owner didn't want to trade five $1 FRNs for one $5 FRN   
If the trade was not agreed to, then it is legally a tort.

If I'm on the jury, I will convict Mr. Cokedrinker.

  
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #17 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 1:02am
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 11:47pm:
And you're STILL wrong.

Because there's always the possibility that the tip-jar owner didn't want to trade five $1 FRNs for one $5 FRN   
If the trade was not agreed to, then it is legally a tort.

If I'm on the jury, I will convict Mr. Cokedrinker.


I would too!

For there to be a jury, there has to be a trial.

For there to be a trial, tip-jar guy had to care.

Yes, if he cares, it's theft.

Even if he doesn't care, but he still lost something, that's theft too.

Because dollars are supposedly fungible, tip-jar guy lost nothing. He has to care - he must differentiate between the dollars taken and those bestowed - for this to be theft. If they're the same to him, then nothing was stolen.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #18 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 1:25am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 1:02am:
Because dollars are supposedly fungible, tip-jar guy lost nothing.


"supposedly fungible".    

See, therein lies the problem.  Its not up to Mr. Cokedrinker to decide what is a "fair" trade.

It's Mr. Tip-Jar who decides WHO he wants to trade with, and for WHAT.

Maybe Mr. Tip-Jar doesn't want a sack of 500 pennies. (which is legally exchangeable for five $1 FRNs)

Any Court in the land will rule in Mr. Tip-Jar's favor.

I have ZERO law experience, but I could easily get Mr. Tip-Jar a handsome settlement!   Smiley

I'm a very smart meece mouse.   Smiley
  
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #19 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:07am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 8:04pm:
Why wouldn't you agree?  If it's not theft, what is it?



It's inappropriate to do that, but theft is a word with a meaning.  It doesn't mean any and all inappropriate actions.  OMG, that man stepped on your foot and didn't say excuse me, that was theft!

#buyadictionary
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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