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kaz
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #20 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:12am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 10:27pm:
A forced "trade" is no trade at all.  It's just stealing at the same time as giving.


So you changed the question.  You said "theft" and you meant "inappropriate" or "wrong."  Yes, it was inappropriate and wrong to make the trade without permission.  If you'd asked the question you meant the first time, you'd have gotten the yes, it was inappropriate and wrong to swap money in his jar without permission.

This isn't a disagreement on principles, it's the teacher (you) not knowing the English language.  Typical.  English teachers are usually low college performers.  You probably taught English.  You and journalists are the worst writers
  

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kaz
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #21 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:15am
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 10:51pm:
So is aluminum.

But maybe the tip-jar owner didn't want a 28-pound bag of empty aluminum soda cans.


That still wasn't the scenario in the question.  The question was he swaps ones for a five.  It wasn't if he leaves five in any form.

The cans would be theft.  Maybe not for his $5, but that he's robbing the labor of the tip jar owner to go redeem the cans.  The pennies for the same reason to a lesser extent.

And doing it was wrong.  But wrong and theft are different words in the dictionary
  

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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #22 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:19am
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 1:25am:
"supposedly fungible".    

See, therein lies the problem.  Its not up to Mr. Cokedrinker to decide what is a "fair" trade.

It's Mr. Tip-Jar who decides WHO he wants to trade with, and for WHAT.

Maybe Mr. Tip-Jar doesn't want a sack of 500 pennies. (which is legally exchangeable for five $1 FRNs)

Any Court in the land will rule in Mr. Tip-Jar's favor.

I have ZERO law experience, but I could easily get Mr. Tip-Jar a handsome settlement!   Smiley

I'm a very smart meece mouse.   Smiley


This thing today to boil everything down to good and bad and then make all good things equal and bad things equal is bizarre to me.

I like Trump.  Therefore, Trump is any and all good words. It doesn't matter what the good words mean.

I hate Trump.  Therefore, Trump is any and all bad words.  It doesn't matter what the bad words mean.

No, words have specific meanings.  You have to understand what the words mean and analyze what Trump did to determine if they fit or not.

It was a tip jar.  There was money in it.  The person did an inappropriate act by swapping the money without asking.  It was wrong.  But it was not "theft," he didn't remove economic value from the tip jar.  He left the same amount he took.

Arson is bad, swapping money without asking is bad.  OMG, he committed arson!

#buyadictionary
  

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Jeff
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #23 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 7:05am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 8:23pm:
Little Big Man wrote Today at 8:04pm:


"Oooh, I need my ones.  Sorry . . . "

Now, is it theft if you make the switch?

It's a use of force, but both of you are left with $5. How can you imagine that's theft?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #24 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 7:07am
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 10:51pm:
So is aluminum.

But maybe the tip-jar owner didn't want a 28-pound bag of empty aluminum soda cans.
Probably the tip jar owner would prefer to have a $5 instead of five ones.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #25 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 7:09am
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 5th, 2019 at 11:47pm:
And you're STILL wrong.

Because there's always the possibility that the tip-jar owner didn't want to trade five $1 FRNs for one $5 FRN   
If the trade was not agreed to, then it is legally a tort.

If I'm on the jury, I will convict Mr. Cokedrinker.

A tort, but not theft. Theft implies the loss of something of value.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #26 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 7:53am
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kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 6:07am:
It's inappropriate to do that, but theft is a word with a meaning.  It doesn't mean any and all inappropriate actions.  OMG, that man stepped on your foot and didn't say excuse me, that was theft!

#buyadictionary


In my scenario, there are two actions by the culprit:  He puts a fiver in the jar and he takes five ones out of the jar.

Putting money into a tip jar isn't wrong  That's what the jar is for.  Taking money out without permission is the same as taking any property from another person without permission is theft. 

Making the assumption that the tip jar proprietor doesn't care doesn't make it less theft.  I can walk by Jeff's garage, see his mower left out in the open and assume he doesn't care about it or doesn't care enough to buy a ten dollar lock.  Doesn't mean I can leave ten dollars and take his mower because I have decided that he values his mower at somewhere less than ten dollars.


  

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Jeff
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #27 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:16am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 7:53am:
In my scenario, there are two actions by the culprit:  He puts a fiver in the jar and he takes five ones out of the jar.

Putting money into a tip jar isn't wrong  That's what the jar is for.  Taking money out without permission is the same as taking any property from another person without permission is theft. 


He didn't remove any property from the jar, he simply replaced five ones with a five. It isn't even a different form of property with the same value, it's the same form of property (FRNs) of different denominations but equivalent value.

Doing it without permission was rude and might get you accused of theft if the barmaid saw you take out the one's but didn't see you put in the five. And it might be that for some bizarre reason the barmaid prefers to have a huge pile of ones at the end of her workday...  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #28 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:19am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 7:53am:
I can walk by Jeff's garage, see his mower left out in the open and assume he doesn't care about it or doesn't care enough to buy a ten dollar lock.  Doesn't mean I can leave ten dollars and take his mower because I have decided that he values his mower at somewhere less than ten dollars.


If you want to buy my mower, stop in and we'll talk about making a deal.

If you want some quarters to play the slots, just ask, I have lots of quarters I'll swap you for FRNs for no service charge because we're neighbors! Kiss


Edit: I left my mower out because the big end rod bearing is starting to knock and running it much longer will destroy the engine... And the wheels are about to fall off the rusty deck too, and the carb needs to be rebuilt again... Take it, please and thanks! Smiley
  

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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #29 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:40am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:16am:
He didn't remove any property from the jar, he simply replaced five ones with a five. It isn't even a different form of property with the same value, it's the same form of property (FRNs) of different denominations but equivalent value.

Doing it without permission was rude and might get you accused of theft if the barmaid saw you take out the one's but didn't see you put in the five. And it might be that for some bizarre reason the barmaid prefers to have a huge pile of ones at the end of her workday...  Roll Eyes


It doesn't need to be a bizarre reason.  The reason the unauthorized taker of the ones took them is that he preferred ones to fives for the coke machine which is not a bizarre reason.   The tip jar owner might have any number of non-bizarre reasons for wanting to keep the ones.  Even it it was for a bizarre reason like, "It's my first night and I want to frame my first tip," doesn't the tip jar owner have a right to do that? 

Or must keeping one's own property pass a "normal reason" test?

  

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