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Little Big Man
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #30 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:41am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:19am:
If you want to buy my mower, stop in and we'll talk about making a deal.

If you want some quarters to play the slots, just ask, I have lots of quarters I'll swap you for FRNs for no service charge because we're neighbors! Kiss


Edit: I left my mower out because the big end rod bearing is starting to knock and running it much longer will destroy the engine... And the wheels are about to fall off the rusty deck too, and the carb needs to be rebuilt again... Take it, please and thanks! Smiley


Excellent examples of voluntary transactions.  My scenario is not voluntary.

  

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kaz
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #31 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 9:03am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:40am:
It doesn't need to be a bizarre reason.  The reason the unauthorized taker of the ones took them is that he preferred ones to fives for the coke machine which is not a bizarre reason.   The tip jar owner might have any number of non-bizarre reasons for wanting to keep the ones.  Even it it was for a bizarre reason like, "It's my first night and I want to frame my first tip," doesn't the tip jar owner have a right to do that? 

Or must keeping one's own property pass a "normal reason" test?




The tip jar is just set up to provide income to the server.  As opposition said, money is fungible.  You don't put money there for special reasons.  Once you empty the tip jar, it's yours.

It was a jerk move to not ask the soda jerk if you can swap, but again, all bad words are not interchangeable, they have meanings.

It was a jerk move and inappropriate.

That it was "bad" doesn't make it synonymous with all other bad moves.  It wasn't murder (no one died), it wasn't arson (no fire) and it wasn't theft (no money was taken).

Yet it was still a jerk move and inappropriate.

All words that are bad don't mean the same thing and aren't interchangeable.  See how that works?

#buyadictionary
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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The Opposition
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #32 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 10:25am
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 1:25am:
"supposedly fungible".    

See, therein lies the problem.  Its not up to Mr. Cokedrinker to decide what is a "fair" trade.

It's Mr. Tip-Jar who decides WHO he wants to trade with, and for WHAT.

Maybe Mr. Tip-Jar doesn't want a sack of 500 pennies. (which is legally exchangeable for five $1 FRNs)

Any Court in the land will rule in Mr. Tip-Jar's favor.

I have ZERO law experience, but I could easily get Mr. Tip-Jar a handsome settlement!   Smiley

I'm a very smart meece mouse.   Smiley


We're only disagreeing on a very, very minuscule point.

I agree that in a normal trade, making it without permission is theft. If somebody swaps my cat for a $10,000 cat, even if I'm very happy with this outcome, taking my cat was still theft because 1) they took it without permission and 2) only my cat is my cat. 2 is important because replacing the value ≠ not having stolen my cat.

I also agree that if the tip jar owner objects, for any reason, then it's theft.

Money is defined as fungible. Even though I've already given some examples of how money is not fungible, if the tip jar owner believes this, and it's true (meaning everyone else believes it) the five dollars taken and the five dollars replaced are the same object. In effect, then, nothing was taken.

If the tip jar owner differentiates between the bills, then it's theft. If he doesn't differentiate but he still cares, I say still theft even then.

I fully admit that defined as identical doesn't make something identical. But, oddly enough, if everyone accepts this lie, that's when it becomes true for money.

Imagine if you duplicated my cat with Star Trek's transporter, all Thomas Riker style. Now, I'm going to prefer the original because I don't trust the transporter (I think it's a death trap). But imagine you can prove to me that these two cats are absolutely identical. Now I have no reason to prefer the original.

Suppose, however, that at some point in this transporter fiasco, the two identical cats are mixed up and no one is sure which is the original.

I may demand the original, but I find the idea a bit odd that if you can't be sure you've given me the original, you're a thief.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #33 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 10:55am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:41am:
Excellent examples of voluntary transactions.  My scenario is not voluntary.

So you stole my mower. I lost, you won, at least until the Sheriff catches up with you...

No theft was involved in the exchange of five dollars for five dollars. It might not have been what the barmaid wanted, but I can't see why not.

Come up with a better scenario.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #34 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 10:57am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 10:25am:
I also agree that if the tip jar owner objects, for any reason, then it's theft.

As kaz keeps telling the Sack, buy a dictionary... Or use one online for free! Is the 21st Century great or what!
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #35 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 11:10am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 10:55am:
No theft was involved in the exchange of five dollars for five dollars.


Right. As Kaz said, no money was taken.

It's possible, though incredibly unlikely, for something else to have been taken.

If the tip jar owner wrote on one of the dollars, "This dollar's name is Bill. I love him; please don't take him." and drew a smiley face, then the words and the smiley face were taken.

I'm with your side in the event that something like this didn't happen, and no one cares. I know you hate my ridiculous scenarios, but I think they're illustrative.

Opposition: Go ahead, beam up my cat.
O'Brien: I uhm... already did.
Opposition: Well she's still down here, chief. You made two, didn't you?
O'Brien: Sorry, my finger slipped. You know, this is a really gorgeous cat. I'll take this one off your hands, if you like. Keiko would love her.
Opposition: Sure, she's yours. Proceed to beam up the real one.
O'Brien: Beaming her up now.
Opposition: Thank you.
Thomas Riker (voice over com): Fight, fight, fight!
Opposition: What's going on up there?
O'Brien: Uhm... they're cats?
Cats: RRrrrrrrrOOOOW!!! HISS!!!
O'Brien: Blast it all! I lost track of which one's which!

So here's my point of contention with Burnsy and Skychief: You are calling O'Brien a thief if he gives me back the wrong cat.

Theft needs a way to determine if there's been theft. If the objects are considered identical by all parties involved, there is not that determinant.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Little Big Man
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #36 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 12:58pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 10:25am:
We're only disagreeing on a very, very minuscule point.

I agree that in a normal trade, making it without permission is theft. If somebody swaps my cat for a $10,000 cat, even if I'm very happy with this outcome, taking my cat was still theft because 1) they took it without permission and 2) only my cat is my cat. 2 is important because replacing the value ≠ not having stolen my cat.

I also agree that if the tip jar owner objects, for any reason, then it's theft.


But how would the switcher know whether the owner objects?  Does the owner really have to put a sign on the jar saying, "please don't make change from my jar" in order to avoid having people help themselves?  I would say that the burden should be on the person desiring change to ask if the owner of the tip jar minds making change.

Obviously, this is a minor theft that isn't a huge deal.  It's like eating one grape at the grocery store to see if you want to buy a bunch, or "borrowing" a kleenex from a co-worker's desk when they are not there.  No one suffers much, anymore than if you take a penny out of a charity donation box on the convenience store counter to pay for an item that costs a $1.01.  But it certainly is a theft, in my humble opinion.   

This thread is a real eye opener for me.  I honestly did not expect this reaction.  I thought people would, "well, yeah.  Of course that would be and I know you are going to say 'that's like taxes,' but taxes are completely diiiiiiiferent!   

I did not expect this "A is not A" reaction, but it explains a lot.




  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #37 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 1:06pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 10:55am:
So you stole my mower. I lost, you won, at least until the Sheriff catches up with you...

No theft was involved in the exchange of five dollars for five dollars. It might not have been what the barmaid wanted, but I can't see why not.

Come up with a better scenario.


Alright.  Here's the scenario that made me think of the tip jar scenario:

In the '80's, when I was eighteen, my mom used to ask me to buy Lone Star Beer for her on my way home  from working at the warehouse (yes, we were rednecks).  She always wanted two talls and a small.  I would always get there just before midnight when beer sales had to stop.  One night, a guy in front of me took a long time to do his scratch offs.  I barely made it under the wire.  The guy behind me was turned down because the big hand was past the twelve.  He said, "Ten minutes I waited!" but the cashier refused and the man angrily left without the beer.

I told mom about it and she said, "that's when you lay the money on the counter, say 'keep the change,' and walk out with the beer."

So?

In a situation in which the buyer is offering more than the seller's asking price, but the seller's clearly expressed a desire not to sell, is that theft or something else?


  

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SkyChief
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #38 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 1:37pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 11:10am:
So here's my point of contention with Burnsy and Skychief: You are calling O'Brien a thief if he gives me back the wrong cat.


Theft needs a way to determine if there's been theft.


Theft has a way.    The person who had the money taken gets to determine the tort (injury).  Not the one who took the money.

example:

Me:  "The f%c$ing government stole nearly 30 grand from me last year!"

Jeff:  "They didn't steal anything.  They were legally justified in taking your money. Stop whining."

Me:    "But the money they took belonged to ME! And they took it by force. I never gave my consent.  It's theft!"

Jeff:   "There are provisions in the Constitution which grant the government the POWER to TAX.  The States ratified it.  It's Law.    Deal with it."

Jeff won the argument, but I was right,  because it was me who suffered the damages.

Mr. Tip-Jar should get to decide if any tort resulted from the FRN swap.    Not Mr. Cokedrinker.   Not the Courts.  (IMO, of course)
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Jeff
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #39 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 3:33pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 11:10am:
Right. As Kaz said, no money was taken.

It's possible, though incredibly unlikely, for something else to have been taken.

If the tip jar owner wrote on one of the dollars, "This dollar's name is Bill. I love him; please don't take him." and drew a smiley face, then the words and the smiley face were taken.

You are actually crazier than a shit-house rat. Cheesy
  

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