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Jeff
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #40 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 3:39pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 1:06pm:
I told mom about it and she said, "that's when you lay the money on the counter, say 'keep the change,' and walk out with the beer."

So?

In a situation in which the buyer is offering more than the seller's asking price, but the seller's clearly expressed a desire not to sell, is that theft or something else?


You wanted to buy, he wanted to sell and you left him a tip.

Who do you think was robbed? What did they lose?

The bar owner did not "express a desire not to sell".

If the local law didn't say he couldn't legally sell alcohol after midnight, he might very well have kept selling beer until 1:00 am or longer.

There were bars around where I grew up that would sell beer after hours to people they knew, regular customers and all that.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #41 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 3:41pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 12:58pm:
Obviously, this is a minor theft that isn't a huge deal.  It's like eating one grape at the grocery store
It's theft to take the grape, and not theft to exchange five dollars for five dollars.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #42 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 4:30pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 3:39pm:
You wanted to buy, he wanted to sell and you left him a tip.

Who do you think was robbed? What did they lose?

The bar owner did not "express a desire not to sell".

If the local law didn't say he couldn't legally sell alcohol after midnight, he might very well have kept selling beer until 1:00 am or longer.

There were bars around where I grew up that would sell beer after hours to people they knew, regular customers and all that.


Well done, Jeff!

A good analysis, even though I disagree.  Regardless of the motivation, the cashier expressed that he could not sell the beer.  That's because he was instructed to do so by the store owner.  The store owner did not want his beer to be sold in his store after midnight. 

Whether that decision was only so the store owner could avoid losing his license or because the store owner for some bizarre reason agreed that it is very good to sell beer at 11:59 PM but very bad to sell beer at 12:01 AM, that was the owner's decision to make  It is not for the would be purchaser to decide through the act of taking and walking away.

Under the law, which you constantly cite, that owner and/or cashier could actually be prosecuted for selling after hours if at that point if he puts that money in the drawer or in his pocket or gives it to a homeless person or anything else besides calling the police and turning the money over as evidence.

I guess bizarre is the key word.  Do people have a right to decide whether or not to trade this set of property for that set of property, even if their reasons for not wanting to do so are bizarre?


  

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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #43 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 5:23pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 12:58pm:
But how would the switcher know whether the owner objects?  Does the owner really have to put a sign on the jar saying, "please don't make change from my jar" in order to avoid having people help themselves?  I would say that the burden should be on the person desiring change to ask if the owner of the tip jar minds making change.

Obviously, this is a minor theft that isn't a huge deal.  It's like eating one grape at the grocery store to see if you want to buy a bunch, or "borrowing" a kleenex from a co-worker's desk when they are not there.  No one suffers much, anymore than if you take a penny out of a charity donation box on the convenience store counter to pay for an item that costs a $1.01.  But it certainly is a theft, in my humble opinion.   

This thread is a real eye opener for me.  I honestly did not expect this reaction.  I thought people would, "well, yeah.  Of course that would be and I know you are going to say 'that's like taxes,' but taxes are completely diiiiiiiferent!   

I did not expect this "A is not A" reaction, but it explains a lot.






The difference is eating one grape costs the store one grape.

Changing the fiver for ones cost the server zero.

But you're the one who thinks the guy who made the switch of ones for fives committed murder, so hyperbole is your thing
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Jeff
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #44 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 5:23pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 4:30pm:
Well done, Jeff!

A good analysis, even though I disagree.  Regardless of the motivation, the cashier expressed that he could not sell the beer.  That's because he was instructed to do so by the store owner.  The store owner did not want his beer to be sold in his store after midnight. 

Whether that decision was only so the store owner could avoid losing his license or because the store owner for some bizarre reason agreed that it is very good to sell beer at 11:59 PM but very bad to sell beer at 12:01 AM, that was the owner's decision to make  It is not for the would be purchaser to decide through the act of taking and walking away.

Under the law, which you constantly cite, that owner and/or cashier could actually be prosecuted for selling after hours if at that point if he puts that money in the drawer or in his pocket or gives it to a homeless person or anything else besides calling the police and turning the money over as evidence.

I guess bizarre is the key word.  Do people have a right to decide whether or not to trade this set of property for that set of property, even if their reasons for not wanting to do so are bizarre?


"The guy behind me was turned down because the big hand was past the twelve."

So the clerk was an idiot who should have kept selling beer while the bozo scratched for a big payoff...

That has nothing to do with what your Mother told you.

She was right.

Lay your money down before you turn into a pumpkin, say "keep the change" and you have bought the beer before 12. Smiley Smiley Smiley

What do you think was stolen? Who lost? The tip was freely given...

What's your complaint? Against who?
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #45 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:50pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 5:23pm:
"The guy behind me was turned down because the big hand was past the twelve."

So the clerk was an idiot who should have kept selling beer while the bozo scratched for a big payoff...

That has nothing to do with what your Mother told you.

She was right.

Lay your money down before you turn into a pumpkin, say "keep the change" and you have bought the beer before 12. Smiley Smiley Smiley

What do you think was stolen? Who lost? The tip was freely given...

What's your complaint? Against who?


If both the store and the buyer had agreed with a wink that, "I didn't see the clock strike midnight because I wasn't looking that way," no one lost.  Since the store owner did not agree to that arrangement, he lost his right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.  You want to say that it is not theft, because - if the store owner had been legally allowed to - he would have sold the beer, fine.  To me that is too much of a stretch, but I won't fault you for not agreeing exactly with me.

I do like that you believe that people should simply ignore foolish laws. That's what I think that they should do, also.  Not fight a bloody revolution, just start ignoring them. 

If that's an anarchist then - Little Big Man is proud to be an anarchist!

(Just giving Kaz an out of context quote for his sig line)
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #46 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 9:21pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 12:58pm:
But how would the switcher know whether the owner objects?


He can't, and it's theft if the owner does object, so he's risking stealing by engaging in the act.

It's just so immensely likely that universally-agreed-to-be-fungible money is the only quantity in play here and thus the tip jar owner won't object, that it bears mentioning that this is probably not theft.

SkyChief wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 1:37pm:
Theft has a way.    The person who had the money taken gets to determine the tort (injury).  Not the one who took the money.


I agree completely. If the tip jar owner objects, then it's theft.

If some non-fungible thing was swapped, I say it's still theft even if the person stolen from is happy with the trade.

Money is peculiar because it's defined as fungible. All those "Buy a dictionary" arguments from Jeff and Kaz? They make some sense, because it's the dictionary telling you that you have to exchange dollars for an equal amount of dollars - otherwise the able to be exchanged bit would be false.

SkyChief wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 1:37pm:
Me:  "The f%c$ing government stole nearly 30 grand from me last year!"

Jeff:  "They didn't steal anything.  They were legally justified in taking your money. Stop whining."

Me:    "But the money they took belonged to ME! And they took it by force. I never gave my consent.  It's theft!"

Jeff:   "There are provisions in the Constitution which grant the government the POWER to TAX.  The States ratified it.  It's Law.    Deal with it."

Jeff won the argument, but I was right,  because it was me who suffered the damages.


I'm ambivalent on this power business. As far as I know, power just means you can do something, not that you're morally justified in it. But redefinition and word bloat (just introduce a new word to win the argument!) are the arguments of choice here, so I can't complain.

Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 3:33pm:
You are actually crazier than a shit-house rat. Cheesy


I made a good point. Jeff wins in his usual way.

kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 5:23pm:
The difference is eating one grape costs the store one grape.

Changing the fiver for ones cost the server zero.


You made a good point that no money was taken.

I was suggesting that something besides money could have been taken, but Jeff pulled out his usual insta-refutal.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #47 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 6:35am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:50pm:
(Just giving Kaz an out of context quote for his sig line)


You've clarified that you're not an anarchist, you're a Marxist who doesn't believe in private property
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Jeff
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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #48 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 6:37am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:50pm:
If both the store and the buyer had agreed with a wink that, "I didn't see the clock strike midnight because I wasn't looking that way," no one lost.  Since the store owner did not agree to that arrangement, he lost his right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.

You're changing scenarios in midstream again.

You got your beer, the guy behind you didn't because it had passed midnight and beer sales were no longer legal. It wasn't a matter of anybody having a right to refuse service, it was the law saying "Too late".

The man behind you lost the opportunity to legally buy beer that night, but no theft occurred. I don't much like the law, I think it's foolish, but nothing about this scenario involves theft either.
  

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Re: Would this be theft????? Hypothetical Scenario
Reply #49 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 6:39am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 9:21pm:
I was suggesting that something besides money could have been taken, but Jeff pulled out his usual insta-refutal.
"Something besides money could have been taken" doesn't constitute theft.
  

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