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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Tragedy of Venezuela (Read 888 times)
BobK71
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #20 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:33pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 2:49pm:
You're so stupid.  I just said twice I don't agree with anything we've done in Venezuela and you came back again with your https://www.epsilontheory.com/they-live/#stupid shit that I praised our policy.  Go blow yourself.  If you want to have a real discussion where you don't ignore what I say, let me know.

Calm down!  If I misread your meaning, I apologize.  However, 'the US doesn't get any credit for doing anything right in Venezuela' doesn't sound like you understand that the US is the main agent for destroying Venezuela's economy.

kaz wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 2:49pm:
Anyway, I'm thinking it's the Jews who control the banks who are driving our policy.  You seem like a guy who would know about that.  It's the Jews, isn't it?


I don't know, but the question is not who is culpable for what (for which we can never get any good answer even if you're right -- see below.)  The important thing is to truly understand how things work, and to spread awareness of it.

The truth is that the small no. of top bankers make alliances with politicians, many of whom push imperialism to help prop up imperial money.  Most likely, this alliance is not done with backroom-dealing conspiracy, but based on mutual interest.  (John Bolton would have no role left if the US abandoned all traces of imperialism.)  No secret conspiracy as big as this would have survived the 600 years of the modern West.  The narratives and ideas promoted by the elites, that are half-true and half-self-serving, that most people don't challenge vigorously enough, are the real agents of evil.

So, in a very real sense, the entire Western population is also part of (an outer ring of) this alliance.  They benefit from the artificial value of their currencies and the real value produced by Third World people who are forced to accept their governments' printed paper.  It's hard to say if they really don't know, or don't want to know.  (Based on my discussions, this 'ignorance' includes, maybe especially includes, educated people.  And we have to say that national pride plays into this alliance pretty nicely for the elites.)

Whatever we think of the few top bankers and weavers of this web, the day they abandon the US, especially if it's done abruptly rather than gently as happened during Dutch and British decline, woe to us.  Rightly or wrongly, that's objectively what would happen.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #21 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 3:13pm
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BobK71 wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:33pm:
However, 'the US doesn't get any credit for doing anything right in Venezuela' doesn't sound like you understand that the US is the main agent for destroying Venezuela's economy.
The only people who believe that Bob are socialists looking for an excuse. They always have to have excuses, and "the evil capitalist U.S. destroyed our beautiful socialist plan again" seems to be the most popular.

Despite generations of talk about socialist solidarity, and a large number of socialist countries, they never seem to want to trade with each other to their mutual benefit... Or is it just that their managed economies and managed trade aren't actually profitable for anyone?
« Last Edit: Feb 12th, 2019 at 6:58pm by Jeff »  

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kaz
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #22 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 5:26pm
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BobK71 wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:33pm:
Calm down!  If I misread your meaning, I apologize.  However, 'the US doesn't get any credit for doing anything right in Venezuela' doesn't sound like you understand that the US is the main agent for destroying Venezuela's economy
  Gotcha, it couldn't be socialism, that has such a great history of not destroying economies.

I don't really know if you're blaming Jews for Venezuela.  You have a lot of issues condemning white nationalists for blaming Jews for the worlds problems and you can't seem to criticize terrorists who murder Israelis
  

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BobK71
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #23 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 8:33am
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kaz wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 5:26pm:
  Gotcha, it couldn't be socialism, that has such a great history of not destroying economies.

Maybe, given enough time, socialist Venezuela would have declined into one of the s-holes President Trump was fond of naming.  Maybe the economy was never well-managed.  I never disputed these.  But its descent over the last decade or so was through financial, not economic channels, and that financial problem (collapse of the bolivar) is directly attributable to US actions. 

kaz wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 5:26pm:
You have a lot of issues condemning white nationalists for blaming Jews for the worlds problems


Such as?

kaz wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 5:26pm:
and you can't seem to criticize terrorists who murder Israelis


I don't think I have discussed this topic, have I?
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #24 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 8:49am
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BobK71 wrote on Feb 13th, 2019 at 8:33am:
Maybe, given enough time, socialist Venezuela would have declined into one of the s-holes President Trump was fond of naming.  Maybe the economy was never well-managed.  I never disputed these.
You seem to have a belief that socialism can actually succeed, maybe as long as the 'right' people do a really good job of designing the "socialist system" that is to be used?

BTW, how is it possible to have a strong fiat currency when you've destroyed your economy with bad "planning"?
  

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kaz
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #25 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 9:06am
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BobK71 wrote on Feb 13th, 2019 at 8:33am:
Maybe, given enough time, socialist Venezuela would have declined into one of the s-holes President Trump was fond of naming.  Maybe the economy was never well-managed.  I never disputed these.  But its descent over the last decade or so was through financial, not economic channels, and that financial problem (collapse of the bolivar) is directly attributable to US actions. 


Such as?


I don't think I have discussed this topic, have I?


No, and it's disturbing.  You still can't explain your obsession with Jew bankers destroying socialist countries and you can't condemn or even disagree with anyone killing Jews
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #26 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 9:40am
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BobK71 wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:33pm:
The important thing is to truly understand how things work, and to spread awareness of it.

The truth is that the small no. of top bankers make alliances with politicians, many of whom push imperialism to help prop up imperial money.  Most likely, this alliance is not done with backroom-dealing conspiracy, but based on mutual interest.  (John Bolton would have no role left if the US abandoned all traces of imperialism.)  No secret conspiracy as big as this would have survived the 600 years of the modern West.  The narratives and ideas promoted by the elites, that are half-true and half-self-serving, that most people don't challenge vigorously enough, are the real agents of evil.

I agree for the most part Bob, especially with the correct idea that governments want to have control over money, but it isn't just for imperialist purposes.

People in governments realized a long time ago that they can increase their power if they can control the money. Bankers are often willing to go along because it also increases their power by increasing their wealth, and being given a government monopoly over fiat money seems to be a great way to get rich.

The reasons people want power and wealth are pretty fundamental, but what they want to do with wealth and power can vary quite a lot.

Socialists want power and the power that comes from controlling money (and entire economies for that matter) because they think they can use that power to create a better world.

Imperialists have/had pretty much the same motive.

British imperialists thought they could make the world a better place if they had the power to do it, and controlling money gave them more power.

Both the socialists (who are often also imperialists, and for the same reasons) and the British style imperialists who thought they were spreading good values of civilization and good government and the rights of man throughout the world were wrong, but the British were less wrong than the socialists, which probably had something to do with them being slightly more effective sometimes.

All of it stems from the "progressive" idea that government power and government action can make the world better.

Libertarians understand the fundamental flaw in this sort of thinking.
  

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ahhell
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #27 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 11:05am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 13th, 2019 at 8:49am:
You seem to have a belief that socialism can actually succeed, maybe as long as the 'right' people do a really good job of designing the "socialist system" that is to be used?


All socialists believe that.  No matter how many times its tried nor how miserably it fails nor how brutal it becomes will ever convince them otherwise.  It was just because it wasn't done right this time or because the evil capitalists interfered then they point to the nordics which are actually mixed economies that were generally well off prior to adopting some socialist policies.  Meanwhile they point to Somalia as the Libertarian Utopia.
  
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kaz
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #28 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 5:03pm
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ahhell wrote on Feb 13th, 2019 at 11:05am:
All socialists believe that.  No matter how many times its tried nor how miserably it fails nor how brutal it becomes will ever convince them otherwise.  It was just because it wasn't done right this time or because the evil capitalists interfered then they point to the nordics which are actually mixed economies that were generally well off prior to adopting some socialist policies.  Meanwhile they point to Somalia as the Libertarian Utopia.


Yep, they're at 100 million dead and counting and still the problem is it wasn't done right before, but they will this time ...
  

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BobK71
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #29 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 9:18am
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ahhell wrote on Feb 13th, 2019 at 11:05am:
All socialists believe that.  No matter how many times its tried nor how miserably it fails nor how brutal it becomes will ever convince them otherwise.  It was just because it wasn't done right this time or because the evil capitalists interfered then they point to the nordics which are actually mixed economies that were generally well off prior to adopting some socialist policies.  Meanwhile they point to Somalia as the Libertarian Utopia.


For the record, I don't believe socialism can actually succeed.

My problem with most on this board, and most educated Westerners for that matter, is that they don't see the West is a socialist economy by another name.  Instead of controlling the economy, the elites of the West run a hidden socialism by controlling money and finance.  All the same basic problems apply to the hidden as to the overt form of socialism.
  
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