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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Tragedy of Venezuela (Read 908 times)
BobK71
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #30 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 9:21am
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kaz wrote on Feb 13th, 2019 at 9:06am:
No, and it's disturbing.  You still can't explain your obsession with Jew bankers destroying socialist countries and you can't condemn or even disagree with anyone killing Jews


I hope you'll understand if I beg for absence from this 'discussion...'
  
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kaz
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #31 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 9:39am
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BobK71 wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 9:21am:
I hope you'll understand if I beg for absence from this 'discussion...'


Not the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?  That's what I did when I kept saying we did nothing right in Venezuela but they are responsible for their own stupid decision to destroy their country with socialism.  You kept responding by calling me an imperialist and saying I support our policy. So ...

... I decided to play with my dinner.  It's hilarious that OBVIOUS line few right over your head.

If you won't read or respond to what I say and replace what I say with your anti-American bigotry, there's no point, is there, Bob?

Bob:  Duh, dar, I don't get it.  What does it have to hating Jews?

Good question, so why do you hate Jews? 

Bob: Why do you keep saying I said things I didn't say, kaz???

Um ... dude, that's what you keep doing to me, idiot.
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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BobK71
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #32 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 9:47am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 13th, 2019 at 9:40am:
I agree for the most part Bob, especially with the correct idea that governments want to have control over money, but it isn't just for imperialist purposes.

People in governments realized a long time ago that they can increase their power if they can control the money. Bankers are often willing to go along because it also increases their power by increasing their wealth, and being given a government monopoly over fiat money seems to be a great way to get rich.

The reasons people want power and wealth are pretty fundamental, but what they want to do with wealth and power can vary quite a lot.

Socialists want power and the power that comes from controlling money (and entire economies for that matter) because they think they can use that power to create a better world.

Imperialists have/had pretty much the same motive.

British imperialists thought they could make the world a better place if they had the power to do it, and controlling money gave them more power.

Both the socialists (who are often also imperialists, and for the same reasons) and the British style imperialists who thought they were spreading good values of civilization and good government and the rights of man throughout the world were wrong, but the British were less wrong than the socialists, which probably had something to do with them being slightly more effective sometimes.

All of it stems from the "progressive" idea that government power and government action can make the world better.

Libertarians understand the fundamental flaw in this sort of thinking.


Well said.

Believe me when I say, I understand all the basic problems of socialism, and that it's not my ignorance of such that draws my conclusions about Venezuela.

I like your apparent grouping of British vs. Communist control of money and power.  I would agree the British sort is more agreeable, and by extension the American sort.

But it's one thing to see it clearly as above, and another to think that we're a 'free market' system and are going into Venezuela to free the people from the yoke of socialism.  To do so would be submitting to the narratives promoted by the Western media.  At least the Soviets had a better name for their mouthpiece -- Pravda (The Truth!)

More important yet, we need to see that it's our real, inner, socialism that ultimately drives us to go into Venezuela.  Subtlety and irony are features of the Western system!
  
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kaz
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #33 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 9:58am
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BobK71 wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 9:47am:
Subtlety and irony are features of the Western system!


You got me there.  Stupid cowboys...
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Jeff
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #34 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 10:14am
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BobK71 wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 9:47am:
But it's one thing to see it clearly as above, and another to think that we're a 'free market' system and are going into Venezuela to free the people from the yoke of socialism.  To do so would be submitting to the narratives promoted by the Western media.  At least the Soviets had a better name for their mouthpiece -- Pravda (The Truth!)

More important yet, we need to see that it's our real, inner, socialism that ultimately drives us to go into Venezuela.  Subtlety and irony are features of the Western system!
I don't assume that the expressed intentions of any government action are the real intentions, but I do understand that even the best sincere intentions of government often have horrible unintended consequences. The European colonial powers for instance divided up Africa under a League of nations mandate after WWI for a variety of reasons, most expressing a desire to bring civilization and Christianity to the "heathen barbarians". The results ranged from bad to worse, with Belgium, Holland, Portugal and Italy producing the worst results, but all of it was essentially and largely bad for Africans; But so were the activities of the Comintern in seeking to "liberate" the African colonies from the Europeans... They "liberated them right into the hands of an African elite who had been educated in Europe and the U.S. to believe that the wealth and power they saw in Europe and the U.S. came from government planning and control of both people and economies.

There were however some things the Africans got from the Europeans that were good in the eyes of the Africans, although the governments they created after the European colonial powers left largely wasted the good that they learned of and could have used.

I am certainly aware that the U.S. doesn't have a free economy, but I think you err in believing that the Western media are promoting a narrative that U.S. intervention, for any reason, is a good thing.

Certainly libertarians believe that the more free the Venezuelan economy is, the better off the people of Venezuela will be.

Even crony capitalism works better than communism, and what Maduro has done, following in the footsteps of Chavez, has been perhaps the worst form of crony capitalism, one that is masquerading as "socialism".
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #35 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 10:14am
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kaz wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 9:58am:
You got me there.  Stupid cowboys...
You think stupid cowboys are subtle?
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Tragedy of Venezuela
Reply #36 - Feb 17th, 2019 at 7:50am
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This is a very good short history of how Chavez ruined Venezuela. He had help from Castro and Putin. Cry

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-venezuela-key-events/
  

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