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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Mousetraps Work because . . . (Read 1721 times)
Little Big Man
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Re: Mousetraps Work because . . .
Reply #10 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 10:28pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 9:35pm:
I don't deny this.


Practical liberty. You're talking about practical liberty, not ideal liberty.

In other words, you want freedoms you can actually use, not pie-in-the-sky freedom that doesn't benefit you because there are gangs everywhere robbing people and you'll probably die tomorrow.


I thought of something very intelligent to say on this metaphor, that starts with eliminating the metaphor and just taking the statement literally.

Mice are opportunists, just like humans are. Mice are so close to us in so many ways (diet being a huge one) that they're the go-to laboratory animal. Results on mice have a good chance of applying to Humans.

Humans became opportunists when they came down out of the trees onto the Savannah and started eating whatever they could find. The first meat your species ate was almost certainly scavenged.

The thing is, to an opportunist, every meal is a free meal. His great intelligence only developed so he could think about and remember the most likely and most calorically profitable free meals to appear.

The conclusion?

I don't think Humans would have this freeloader problem quite as bad, if you evolved from a true predator. A Kzinti understands that for there to be meat, it has to be hunted. Someone hunted it! It's an intrinsic understanding that effort was expended which would have served you well through agrarian-style farming and beyond.

Instead, you evolved from opportunists, so sometimes, meat is just there.


Wow.  Just wow.

More to come later.

  

Snarky no more!
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genepool
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Re: Mousetraps Work because . . .
Reply #11 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 12:40am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 10:59am:
I don't see how it's trolling. I have yet to see someone justify taxes as moral without resorting to insults.

If I take something involuntarily, it's theft.

If there are six of me doing this, I'm a gang. Still theft.

If there are a million of me doing this, and I say to the rest, "Hey guys let's have a vote to legitimise this action," and they all cheer and nod, and the few people I'm stealing from are outvoted, and I write a nice constitution to justify my actions, then I'm a government and it's not theft.

See where Burnsy and me get tripped up? The last just seems like a jazzed-up version of the second.

If you want me to change my opinion, I'll be more than glad to, since I don't want to live in Somalia either, but I need a consistent argument that wins, and it can't have insults in it since I'm not as good as you are at using insults.



Income taxes sucks. But what about visa? If you don't like it, just don't come?

Or what about if your government don't have exit visa and other states charge even higher taxes?

On those 2 cases tax is justified.
  
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kaz
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Re: Mousetraps Work because . . .
Reply #12 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 6:38am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:55pm:
I love that answer, Kaz, disagree or no.  There's hope for you yet, sir!

If you talked like that even one half of the time, you would be a respected member of this forum.

EDIT:

Hell, try it, Kaz.  I have about four more days of being mr. nice guy until the poll closes.  See if you can do the same for only four days.

I've tried not to watch the returns so I can be surprised at the results.  I agreed to follow the will of the voters so if I go back being the Snarkmeister, you can either follow my lead or be the bigger man, which I will have to admit if I'm the one being Snarky.  If the voters vote the nice ticket, then there will be two less jerks on the board.

How about it?





I can't tell the difference
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Jeff
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Re: Mousetraps Work because . . .
Reply #13 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 6:51am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 8:53pm:
I once saw a poster in Frankfurt Germany which depicted a cartoon mouse sweating while trying to retrieve a piece of cheese from a mousetrap with a pencil.  I thought, 'Yep, that's what life is like.'
You support yourself by stealing?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Mousetraps Work because . . .
Reply #14 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 6:55am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2019 at 9:35pm:
Humans became opportunists when they came down out of the trees onto the Savannah and started eating whatever they could find. The first meat your species ate was almost certainly scavenged.

The thing is, to an opportunist, every meal is a free meal. His great intelligence only developed so he could think about and remember the most likely and most calorically profitable free meals to appear.

You have a simplistic introductory level understanding of this, which is to say you don't really know what you are talking about.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Mousetraps Work because . . .
Reply #15 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 10:43am
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Jeff wrote on Feb 7th, 2019 at 6:55am:
You have a simplistic introductory level understanding of this, which is to say you don't really know what you are talking about.


Give us a non-simplistic version then. Go ahead. Wow everyone with the minutiae I missed, then explain how this invalidates my conclusion.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Little Big Man
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Re: Mousetraps Work because . . .
Reply #16 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 11:00am
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kaz wrote on Feb 7th, 2019 at 6:38am:
I can't tell the difference (between being a jerk and honest debate).


Ah.

  

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The Opposition
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Re: Mousetraps Work because . . .
Reply #17 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 11:10am
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Little Big Man wrote on Feb 7th, 2019 at 11:00am:
Ah.


When you win every argument because you brought nukes to a gunfight, it must all seem the same.

This insta-win shit is, to me, model for how libertarians actually handle parasitic behaviour. Aggression is an example of parasitic behaviour.

When none aggress, all benefit, and when all aggress, all lose.

But when some aggress and some don't, the aggressors win by a massive margin.

So you rule out one example of parasitic behaviour and claim the free market will solve the rest.

This forum isn't well moderated, so we have a totally free market for debate tactics.

All I see is parasitic behaviour becoming the norm because people don't want to lose every time. I see the free market not only encouraging parasitic behaviour, but necessitating it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Mousetraps Work because . . .
Reply #18 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 1:32pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 7th, 2019 at 10:43am:
Give us a non-simplistic version then. Go ahead. Wow everyone with the minutiae I missed, then explain how this invalidates my conclusion.
It's not worth the time to go into detail, so I'll just say that all life forms are opportunistic.

The first humans were opportunists eating seeds and tubers and scavenging bone marrow and brains when they could get them (lean meat such as they were likely to find isn't that good as a food source), but they almost certainly didn't live in trees. They probably slept in trees and climbed into trees to escape predators, but they weren't arboreal, they were nomads.

None of their meals were free, they worked to make their living. Even what they scavenged had to be scavenged in competition with other scavengers, but if their diet wasn't mostly nuts and seeds and tubers, they were probably on the edge of starvation. At times and places, they could easily harvest an abundance of wild foods with not too much work, at other times and places, they worked hard all day and came up with short rations or nothing.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Mousetraps Work because . . .
Reply #19 - Feb 7th, 2019 at 1:33pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 7th, 2019 at 11:10am:
When you win every argument because you brought nukes to a gunfight, it must all seem the same.

This insta-win shit is, to me, model for how libertarians actually handle parasitic behaviour. Aggression is an example of parasitic behaviour.

When none aggress, all benefit, and when all aggress, all lose.

But when some aggress and some don't, the aggressors win by a massive margin.

So you rule out one example of parasitic behaviour and claim the free market will solve the rest.

This forum isn't well moderated, so we have a totally free market for debate tactics.

All I see is parasitic behaviour becoming the norm because people don't want to lose every time. I see the free market not only encouraging parasitic behaviour, but necessitating it.
Ah.

You say economic liberty makes parasitic behavior necessary.

I can't see why...

You don't understand economic liberty do you?
  

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